LOST The Man Behind The Curtain

SPEAKER_05 0:09

Hey guys, and welcome to this episode of Sassin's Sips, where every week we discuss and dissect another episode of Lost in Order while we drink. We are your hosts. I'm Lisa. And I'm Agnes. And today's episode is The Man Behind the Curtain.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

The little Wizard of Oz.

SPEAKER_05 0:30

Mm-hmm. Today I am drinking some uh boozed up seltzer.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Are you drinking the brand that tastes like static?

SPEAKER_05 0:45

No, no, it's it's just actual seltzer and vodka.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Oh, I'm so proud of you.

SPEAKER_05 0:51

Yeah, I I actually prefer, although I do like the brand that tastes like static, apparently. Um, I actually prefer just vodka and seltzer, and and like a lemon or an orange or something in it if I have nice, all fancy.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

The one I told you about the brand, the same as a crown in the language, it refreshes a fucking awesome. Like you're like they're really good.

SPEAKER_05 1:19

Yes, as soon as I am at the supermarket and not broke, I shall try it.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

It's funny how I like the fact that we're naming all these brands without maybe the brands. Like the one with the we're good.

SPEAKER_05 1:33

Our people know us, they know. They know we're special, they yes, and I think this either for it or in spite of it. I'm not sure which.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

A little bit of both.

SPEAKER_05 1:47

So the man behind the curtain, obviously, a nod to the Wizard of Oz. Any upfront thoughts before we jump into 1964?

SPEAKER_03 1:59

No, it was nothing that I have to speak out now.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

Because this ends with a scene that we we're gonna really need to have to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

It I it it okay, it also has a part there was a scene, this particular scene, and I was like, oh, wait till I talk to Lisa about her boyfriend.

SPEAKER_05 2:27

Yes, but wait till we talk to you about yours. I know because because you you've made very clear threats this whole podcast.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

So a threat, it's a promise.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

So I don't know. So is it is this where it ends?

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Knowing lost, no. This is because I know this is sad because I know this is a lot of because it's the fuck boy of TV.

SPEAKER_05 2:57

We've we've gotten comments on that from listeners.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

I I've I've seen.

SPEAKER_05 3:04

I'm so glad that my potty mouth can enrich people's lives. I I mean that was like one of the best lines ever, I must admit. So okay, you drink and I'll go back to 1964. You ready? I'm drinking. Okay. An unfamiliar woman, Emily, is going into labor in the woods. Her husband, Roger, tries to help. She gives birth but says something is wrong. She's hemorrhaging. He grabs them both and runs to a road for help. Emily says to call the baby Benjamin and then dies. Presently at camp with the others, Ben is in his tent looking at his Annie doll. Although we don't know it's an Annie doll, we just see a doll. Richard comes in asking about the tape when they are interrupted by Locke returning. Locke demands answers now that he has done what Ben asked. Inside his tent, Ben tells Loc that although it looks like Ben is in charge, it's actually Jacob. Ben says only he is allowed to see Jacob because he is the only one remaining that was born on the island. Loc is skeptical, but Ben insists that Jacob only trusts and speaks to him. Locke accuses Ben of being the man behind the curtain. Hey everyone, Lisa here. I want to take a moment to tell you about this really cool travel backpack that I got. It's made by Muslim and it's so cool. As you know, Agnes and I are not in the same state. So we travel to see each other quite frequently. This backpack makes it so easy to do so. The bag has space for everything. When I fly, I don't like to check a bag. This makes it so easy for me to bring everything that I need with me on carry-on, including recording equipment. It has a space for everything. Trust me when I say that if you travel, even if it's just for a road trip, this bag is perfect for you. Go to muzzum.com now and use our promo code SASPOD for 20% off of your new bag. Trust me when I say you'll love it. In 1973, Ben and Daddy Roger arrive on the island by submarine and are greeted by Horace. Welcome to the Dharma Initiative. They watch a video welcoming them and telling them about the sonar fence. And then Roger Linus becomes Roger Workman and then becomes pissed off. A little girl named Annie introduces herself to Ben and offers him an Apollo bar. Back at the beach, Sawyer is hiding in the bushes like a proper pervert waiting for Said. He fills Saeed in on everything except him killing Cooper. Side note, look at how far these two have come. From Saeed having bamboo shooting um sticking bamboo shoots underneath Sawyer's fingernails to now Saeed is like the only one that Sawyer trusts.

SPEAKER_04 6:15

And I think it's because of that he trusts Saeed.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

They're both straight shooters. And I think they recognize that with each other. Because even after he tortured him, Sawyer really didn't have didn't hold much of a grudge against him at all. He's like just don't hate the game, don't hate the don't hate the play, hate the game. Like it's just what it is.

SPEAKER_05 6:37

Right. After that, we cut to undead Mikhail running into the other's camp shouting for Ben. Ben says he thought he was dead. And Mikhail explains that thankfully the pylons were not set to a lethal level. Mikhail sees Locke and demands to know why he's there and that he's the one who tried to kill him. Mikhail then tells them about Naomi, the helicopter, the ship, and the phone. But Ben says they'll get to it when they get to it, and Loc uses the opportunity to force Ben to take him to see Jacob. Mikhail is confused that Ben is acting like Loc's little bitch, and then Locke beats Mikhail's ass. Ben tells Richard and Tom to intervene, but they'd rather just watch, wishing they had some popcorn. While collecting water, Alex arrives to give Locke a gun and also to coldly wish her dad a happy birthday. Now we go back to the 70s. Ben is in class when the building shakes and the siren sounds. They duck and cover and the teacher gets her rifle. I wish the teacher's name was Annie because then I could be like Annie got her gun. Annie tells Ben it's the hostiles and that it'll be okay. That night, Ben overhears his dad arguing with Horace about driving through a shootout and wanting hazard pay. He overhears some also also apparently not caring about Ben's education. Ben then sees his dead mother outside his bedroom window, chips over a chair and falls down. Daddy Roger comes in yelling, and then Ben stares longingly at a picture of his parents smiling. At the beach, Sawyer and Saeed go looking for Juliet but find Kate instead. Kate admits she told Jack about Naomi and Said is pissed. He tells Sawyer to play her the tape. In the jungle, Loc is casually eating some fruit as Ben explains that Jacob is not the kind of man you visit, and instead he is the kind of man who summons you. Loc points out that there's a first sign for everything, and the whole camp watches them intensely as they walk away. They all have looks on their face like, oh shit, like this man is crazy.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

But is it towards Ben Henry? Henry Ben? I call him Ben Henry still. Benry La Benry. Yeah, Henry. That made me wonder. Like, who are they looking at like that?

SPEAKER_05 9:15

Speaking, speaking of Benry, okay, before we go on really quick, because otherwise I'll forget. Obviously, the episode is called The Man Behind the Curtain, which is a blatant Wizard of Oz connection. When we first met Ben, his name was Henry Gale. Gail being Dorothy's last name in The Wizard of Oz.

SPEAKER_04 9:37

Right.

SPEAKER_05 9:38

He came in a balloon. Like the wizard left Oz in a balloon. So there's this overall theme, Wizard of Oz theme, whenever it comes to Benry.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

I think because the island is like Oz. It's weird. It exists, but it doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_05 10:00

Sometime after the hostile attack, Ben is on the swings with Annie and she gives him a birthday gift. She's like the only one who ever remembers. It's two wooden dolls. Well, I think they're wood, I don't know. One is for each of them, so they never have to be apart. When Ben gets home, Daddy O is passed out among his empties. He wakes as Ben takes his boot off and notices the box. He apologizes for forgetting Ben's birthday by giving one hell of a speech. Ben runs out of the house crying to the sonic fence. He hears whispers and sees his mother on the other side. When he makes a move towards her, she tells him not to, that it's not time yet. In the jungle, after some time walking, Ben and Locke come across a line of gray ash that Locke begins to investigate, but Ben insists they keep moving. At the beach, at night, the whole camp is in an uproar about Naomi, as well as them being dead. I mean, it would probably come as a shock if somebody told you you were dead, right? Just a little bit. Just a sad bit.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

I mean, I don't know. After the year we've all had, I don't know if I'd be that shocked. I'm like, uh, okay. So that means I don't have to pay bills anymore. I don't know about my pychoscope. I'm just wondering, you know.

unknown 12:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

I'm still stressed the fuck out over that every day.

SPEAKER_05 13:04

As Sawyer plays them the tape, Jack and Juliet return. Juliet says she's actually helping them and tries to prove it by telling Sawyer to turn the tape over. They then hear Ben talk about an attack on the camp. Juliet says she already told Jack and that he was thinking of a plan. The scene ends after a weird staring contest, and Jack says they have some catching up to do.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

There's something about Juliet's facial expressions that I just want to spat the teeth out of her mouth.

SPEAKER_05 13:38

Like I know, I know. But that but as an actress, she's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Phenomenal. Okay, I don't know what actress is.

SPEAKER_05 13:46

I would like to be her.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Like you, lady, actress, phenomenal. I love you. Elizabeth Mitchell. Thank you. I know I knew I knew it. But the character, you do so well. You do such a great job, that character, like Shirley Gentures by the end of the show, because I would not continue that. Which is a nod to you, Elizabeth.

SPEAKER_05 14:05

We're gonna talk about Juliet at the end, too.

SPEAKER_04 14:09

Back in the flash, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:12

Back in the flashback. You know, you always have to be difficult. It's okay, I like you. I'll take orders from you. That's what you said. Ma'am, may I go on? Okay. Back in the flashback, Ben is running away from home and has come prepared this time for the death fence. He uses the code and then sends his precious rabbit to check if it is disarmed. And thus we see the origins of Ben's cruelty to rabbits. When the rabbit goes through safely, Ben follows. He hears whispers in the jungle and calls out for his mom, but instead finds Richard. He asks if Richard is a hostile and says he's looking for his dead mother. Richard tells him to go home, but Ben wants to go with Richard. Richard says, maybe, but that Ben has to be patient. At present time, nightfall, they reach a rundown cabin in the woods. The kind of cabin that scary stories are built on. Which, you know, this scene also kind of looks like something out of the Wizard of Oz. Remember when they're going through the jungle and there's the rumor of like the dead guy hanging in the trees? But the way the scenery and the cabin, it just gave me a very Wizard of Oz feeling.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

The dark, twisty version.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

Isn't that neat?

SPEAKER_03 15:50

The whole thing is kind of dark and twisty. Because I'm one of those people that I don't believe, like you landed on this woman and you killed her.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

And when her sister wants retribution, she's the back, she's also on the witch. Like, I don't, you know, that's how I feel about those of us.

SPEAKER_05 16:09

Ben lights an oil lamp and tells Loc to shut off the flashlight because Jacob had hates technology as much as Loc does. Ben warns that once he opens the door, there is no turning back. Loc is like, do it, motherfucker. Inside, Ben introduces Loc to an empty chair he calls Jacob. Loc is like, are you for real or just crazy? Ben chats with the invisible Jacob and Loc tells him he's pathetic and turns to leave. As he does, he hears a deep voice say, Help me. You like my Jacob impression?

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Phenomenal.

SPEAKER_05 16:53

Locke asks Ben to repeat himself, but Ben is like, not me, homie. Loc shines his flashlight on Ben's face, and as he does so, the room starts to shake. Things fall off walls and windows break. It's like if someone forgot to push the button again. The lantern falls to the floor and catches fire, and then just as quick is extinguished. Ben looks as if he's shaking someone in the chair and then tells Invisible Jacob to stop. And then he gets slammed into a wall. Locke sees the man in the chair for a moment and then is like, yeah, I'm getting the fuck out of here. The chaos stops just as quickly as it began, and Ben comes outside with the lantern now back intact. Locke asks, What the fuck? And Ben is like, Oh, that's just Jacob. The next morning, Ben asks Loc what Jacob said. And Locke responds by telling Ben there is no Jacob, that the whole thing was some kind of trick, and he's gonna expose him as a fraud. Loc then notices they're going back a different way, and Ben admits he wasn't born on the island and says he wants to show Locke something. We flash back to 1992. Oh, to be 12 again. Years have passed, and now Ben is now Ben Workman. We see him look fondly at his Annie doll and then put it in his bag. Outside, he helps his dad load beer into the VW van for the Pearl Station and confronts his dad about forgetting his birthday yet again. After the work is done, they drive to have some father-son time. Roger comments on the view as he drinks his beer. Ben asks if Roger really thinks it's Ben's fault that Emily died, and Roger says he doesn't know. Roger wants to know why Ben keeps looking at his watch and if he has a date, and Ben knows it's actually Roger who has a date with death. Ben then says goodbye to Roger, puts on his gas mask, and releases gas in the van, killing his father. Bye bye, Daddy O. Ben then returns to the barracks where he meets up with Richard and the others, and all the members of the Dharma Initiative are gassed and dead. Richard asks if he wants them to get his dad, and Ben is like Natalie Bestir. Present day, Ben shows Locke a giant hole filled with skeletons. Ben explains they were the last of the Dharma Initiative, but that they could not coexist with the original inhabitants of the island. He explains that when it became clear that one group had to go to be purged, he did what he had to. He says he was smart enough not to end up in the ditch like the Dharma Initiative. He then says, this also makes him smarter than Locke. Locke spins around and pulls his knife, but Ben is quicker and shoots Loc. Loc falls backward into the pit. Ben asks what Jacob told him, but Locke wants to know why he shot him. Ben says it's because he heard Jacob. Ben asks again what Jacob said, and Loc replies, Help me. Ben is visibly shaken and tells Locke he better hope Jacob helps him now. Ben walks away, leaving Loc in the skeleton ditch, gasping for breath. And we end the episode there.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

So are we gonna totally ignore the fact that Richard hasn't aged in 30 plus years? So you noticed. Um I think so. Like I'm even I'm not that he looks good, right? It looks good for 100 something year old dude, for all I know. Um so obviously, Richard and his cohorts were called the hostels and were there in that island beforehand. And obviously he could come back and forth because he recruited, at least we know of Julia, but who knows how many other people he recruited to come to the island?

SPEAKER_05 21:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

Um, he hasn't aged. This one I feel like it's it's it's back to this. It was fucking dead. This is purgatory, it's all in their mind. The whole thing, that's the only thing that makes sense in my head. Like the paranormal activity, like everything's everyone's fucking dead already. Um the parallel universe thing, maybe. I don't know. With Penny looking for her, I don't know. It's I I'm not going to this fucking rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_05 21:37

You want to do trivia?

SPEAKER_03 21:39

Trivia, yeah, trivia. No, before we go trivia, I want to know your thoughts. Your first time watching your thoughts on Richard.

SPEAKER_05 21:48

I mean, you didn't realize that this was like, well, 15 years ago. But uh it was, I'm pretty sure my thoughts were what the fuck? What the actual fuck? I don't I can't imagine my thoughts were anything other than that.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

So, okay, so while you were watching this the first time around, did you try to decipher what was going on? And did you a lot? What did you give up? Did you ever give up or you just said, fuck it, I'm just gonna watch it?

SPEAKER_05 22:18

I think that I never gave up and that it was an ongoing thing, at least until the show ended.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Okay, so I am about three seasons ahead of you and just saying, fuck it, I give up, I'm just gonna watch it.

SPEAKER_05 22:35

Well, I mean, we kind of got some answers here, right? So now we know.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

We get one answer and then 6,000 more questions.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

Well, all right, all right. Not really. I mean, we we learn really how Ben came to be on the island.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

And in a sense, though, in a sense, he was born on the island.

SPEAKER_05 22:59

Like metaphorically.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Because like on his birthday, he killed, he got rid of all that shit. Like was his father's father.

SPEAKER_05 23:07

And his father. He killed them both on his birthday.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

I mean, see that I feel so sorry for him though. He had a really fucked up childhood. Like his father blamed him. Like, that was I feel sorry for Benefer.

SPEAKER_05 23:18

Way to give the villain the snappy story.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

Yeah, right? They always do that. I call him Benefer by mistake. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 23:30

Um, let's just run through trivia real quick. Let me get it out of the way, and then we'll we'll keep going with the talking points. Because I think that some of these may lead to other talking points.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 23:44

So this episode shows Ben's mother dying in childbirth, which may explain his obsession with trying to prevent pregnant women on the island from dying. Or it could just be nonsense. For a split moment when the things are flying around the cabin, a long-haired, slightly bearded man can be seen sitting in the chair. Did you catch that? So anything? Any thoughts, any explanation, any anything about that?

SPEAKER_02 24:16

No.

SPEAKER_05 24:17

Okay. Alright. Both Ben and Locke have moms named Emily. And both were not raised with their mom.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Interesting. What was Ben no? What was Locke's foster sister's name?

SPEAKER_05 24:37

I don't remember.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

I feel like that's important.

SPEAKER_05 24:40

Okay, never mind. Ben killed both his parents on his birthday. Richard has been on the island since at least the 70s. Both Locke and Ben killed their fathers to be with the others. And Ben's mother is played by his real life wife, Carrie Preston.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Interesting. A little creepy. But I, you know. She's so cute. Like they they make a really cute couple. I'm sure they do. And it's just funny. My wife played my mother. I feel like it's a whole I feel like it's Chinatown.

SPEAKER_05 25:17

Like, well, Oedipus is going to town that.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

My my wife. What was it? My mother. My sister. My mother. My sister. You've seen Chinatown?

SPEAKER_05 25:27

No.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 25:28

Okay. We've we've we've gone over that before.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

I I I didn't remember that. See, I see this show has done it, has a lot of sick valid points to it. So, you know, the whole Oedipus. Did I tell you that joke about Oedipus and Midas?

SPEAKER_05 25:47

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

It was motherfucking gold. You cannot get to that one. You cannot tell me that joke is not fucking hysterical.

SPEAKER_05 25:59

It is. As long as you know who Midas and Oedipus are.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

And I find it funny when people laugh and don't know what they are. And I find it even that makes me laugh even harder because they have no idea what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_05 26:12

I'm gonna tell that joke to Alex later.

SPEAKER_04 26:15

Oh motherfucking gold, I tell you. Because it really is a motherfucking gold.

SPEAKER_05 26:22

Okay. Did you recognize who Ben's dad was?

SPEAKER_03 26:27

Okay, I did and I did it. I something kept like gnawing at my brain. I'm like, what the fuck am I missing? So hey, Lucy. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 26:35

So remember a few episodes ago when Hurley finds the van and they're getting it started. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I knew that.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Oh no, I just meant I just meant skeletor. Oh, yeah, no, because when I saw when they saw him driving, I'm like, oh, that's so funny. Oh Roger Berkman. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I thought you meant it. It was something else that would have been obvious.

SPEAKER_05 26:59

Nope. Nope. That was it.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

I chuckled.

SPEAKER_05 27:02

And remember, I told you in the episode, I was like, we'll get to him later and talk about daddy issues. Oh, that was Ben's daddy.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

It's always daddy issues. So it could have I I completely forgot about it. It's always someone's daddy issues. I'm just glad as a mother, that it's not all about us this time.

SPEAKER_05 27:21

Um, in a previous episode, Mikhail mentioned the purge, but now we've got we've gotten to see it, so we know what it is, more or less.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Like, yeah. You gave the impression that the purge didn't happen 30 years ago. Like, like you just somehow just assumed the purge was relatively recent, you know, in recent history, and you felt like Dharma purge that you just didn't know what was going on.

SPEAKER_05 27:47

Right, because this is the total. Well, yeah, from 1992, 30 years. Well, 20 years, I guess, at that point.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Well, yeah. But uh, but but but at the very least, 30 because other people 10, 15 years at that point. Well, longer because she met Richard, and Richard, because the way these people came out, the hostiles aren't new. Richard was there in the 70s.

SPEAKER_05 28:17

Yes, but remember the the purge itself when they gassed them. Well, yeah, but of the buttons.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

But these people have been there at least longer, as well. Watched have to be there a lot longer because Richard wasn't by himself. So and they came, they came out with Richard. So you know they've been there for like so like these people, so Mikhail is we know that they've been there since at least the 70s. And I want to say the 60s, personally, I don't know why. Well longer, because when Dharma came there, they were already there. So these people who know how how long who knows how long they've been there, right? The Bermuda Triangle, the Fiji's the Pacific Ocean.

SPEAKER_05 28:55

Do you want to talk about Ben's evolution as a character?

SPEAKER_03 29:00

I think we should. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't.

SPEAKER_05 29:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Ooh.

SPEAKER_05 29:06

So we saw his childhood.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

You what? I said I sound smart today.

SPEAKER_05 29:11

You are smart every day.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

No.

unknown 29:14

Okay. I tried.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

Uh I mean, childhood, and we say that loosely, poor kid. And like we don't even know what his life was before they even got to the island. At nine, he probably had nine years of hell. I think that's that. I think for some reason, like being in the island gave him made it easier as if compared to if they never came to the island. Does that make sense? Because, like, you know, when you're on the island, you're only so much, like you're protected as far as the cloister of people you're with. You imagine his like a small community, nothing's coming in, nothing's going out. This, this, you know, um, kind of like Carol Gardens was when we grew up. And I kind of missed that about that neighborhood. Um but it's sad that that was probably the best his life could have taken him. I think seeing his mother, I juggle that everyone's dead, this is purgatory. I think seeing his mother personally was probably in his head. And if Juliet didn't know Richard, I probably think Richard was in his head too at some point.

SPEAKER_05 30:25

Okay, but he saw his mother. Couldn't that be along the same lines as the way Jack saw his father or Kate saw the horse, or when Hurley saw his friend Dave?

SPEAKER_03 30:39

I think he's I think it's in this head. I don't, I think the whole island fucks with your head. It's a gaslighting motherfucker, I tell you.

unknown 30:53

All right.

SPEAKER_05 30:54

And I mean, obviously, we see that Ben hated being a part of the Dharma Initiative. Once he met Richard, he wanted to go there. And at some point between the day he chose to run away and the day he uh you know gassed the uh Dharma Initiative, he became their leader.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

I um because they deferred to him. I have a theory into that. I think he's like a figure, I think he's like a rubber-stamped figurehead. And I think it has to do with the reason the hostiles are on the island that they can't age. Like Ben wasn't born on the island, and I figure, and I think that somehow, for some whatever reason, they need that ability. So for some reason, I don't know what is. I mean, obviously Richard can get off the island, but I think it's something to do with Ben. I think Richard and the Richard, I think, gave him the power. Does that make sense? Of others.

SPEAKER_05 31:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Does that make sense? I think Richard is really what you mean. I think Richard's the man behind the curtain in this sense.

SPEAKER_05 32:07

Well, remember in the Wizard of Oz it wasn't right. The wizard wasn't quite the wizard, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:15

And I think Richard is the one that's running shit.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

Okay, that's that's a really good um theory.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

I don't know how to take that because you fuck with my head so much. I'm like, wait, really? I don't know what to do. I'm scared.

SPEAKER_05 32:32

Okay, so speaking of men behind curtains, let's talk about the cabin scene and what you make of Jacob as a whole so far. We've heard Jacob, we've we've heard Jacob's name be mentioned a few times now in different episodes. And now supposedly we learn that Ben is the only one who talks to Jacob because Jacob is Jacob only trusts Ben because Ben was born on the island. We know for a fact that that wasn't true. He was born on the side of a road in Portland or near Portland, so that's not true, which obviously calls into question question everything else that Ben has ever said, but let's just stick with this, Jacob.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

I think Jacob is who Ben wishes he was. Ooh, like an alter ego, something of that nature, charismatic, people listen to, people follow. And I don't know why. What was it? What was the guy's name, the hippie? That guy that Horace? Horace. Horace the hippie. Anyhow, um, and I don't know Horace Goodspeed. I don't know. For some reason, the the this the flash, it looked like he had long hair. Maybe it was Horace. I don't know who he visualizes, but I think Jacob is who he wants. He wish is his alter ego.

SPEAKER_05 34:05

So Richard is the man behind the curtain, but we call him Jacob when it refers to the band giving the orders.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

In a sense, yeah. Because I think Ben doesn't want to like in his head, it's him like you know what I mean. I think some reason his I don't know. You you never forget it. You didn't see Star Wars, forget it. All right, sorry. I saw I saw I did see it bits and pieces over the years, but not don't worry about it. I know who Chewbacca is. Okay. Axe is making Chewbacca sounds now.

SPEAKER_05 34:40

Okay, well then you're all caught up. 28 million movies and cartoons later, you know who Chewbacca is.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

So I know and the machines and the little robots and the droids. They're called droids. R2D2 droid.

SPEAKER_05 35:00

RTD2. Don't you have an Android phone?

SPEAKER_04 35:08

I do.

SPEAKER_05 35:09

Don't you know that they had to get special permission from George Lucas in order to even call it that?

SPEAKER_04 35:15

I didn't know that. That's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_05 35:17

They did, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

That's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_05 35:19

I still don't have an Android, but I knew that. Yeah, they had to have permission from Lucas.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

That's actually kind of cool. So Lucas George Lucas. I don't know who George Lucas is. He he actually Android, that's his first use of Android, the word, period.

SPEAKER_05 35:35

I I guess so. Well, droid. I don't think specifically Android, I think it's the phone.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Because of the mud because the operating system is Android.

SPEAKER_05 35:46

Yeah. So in the movies, they're called droids. They're not called Androids, they're droids. Like R2D2C3PO or them. They're droids. I don't know. I know, I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

But you see how um my confusion is? Like, if that's not the first use of it, technically it's not the first use of it.

SPEAKER_05 36:06

He's like the overlord. You know how powerful George Lucas probably is?

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Like, I mean, he's I don't like powerful.

SPEAKER_05 36:13

I you know what power can be taken away in a heartbeat with the right maybe, but he's Lucas.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

They get Darth Vader after you with the light with the right lightsaber. Let me stop. I am your father. All you need is Doc Vader could come over here now if you like hit Ben, I am your father.

SPEAKER_05 36:41

A line that we use but was actually not in the movie. Should have been it, he says he's his father, but he doesn't say Luke, I am your father, like everybody says.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Oh, I like what the whole Henry and my father. Okay, I thought that's ah, you know, speaking of lines that are not really in the books, okay. You know, with um Sherlock Holmes and all the TV shows that the OT they go is elementary, my dear Watson. That is never in any that has been that was never in any of the books. Ever.

SPEAKER_05 37:21

That's a letdown.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

So it just kind of was thrown in there when they saw doing like the TV show, the movies, and it's like, and then it just stuck. And yeah, because it's a good line, it really is. And then remember in elementary school, we were like, Well fuck you, Watson. Well fuck you home. So we're like, yeah, elementary Watson. Excuse me, when my cats are coming in. I hear 'em. Yeah, they run shit. Cats and babies run my house, and I love it. All right.

SPEAKER_05 37:56

In the cabin scene, what was going on? You did you have any thoughts, any take on it?

SPEAKER_03 38:03

I knew you were gonna ask me this, and I'm just going back to the whole and the impurgatory anyway. So that's that takes care of all of the bullshit. I did have a moment where I'm like, okay, either, oh wow, Ben is actually psycho, like he's really losing and he's fucking crazy. Like he skits, like there's something wrong with him, like he sees things, like he, you know, and then I'm like, well, knowing Ben, he's faking being crazy. And then I'm like, well, maybe he's faking being crazy, being normal. Like anyway, uh, but then I'm like, fuck it, it's purgatory. That's that cut that cut that answers all questions.

SPEAKER_05 38:43

Alex and I have a running gag, right? It started because we used to play the um Star Wars Trivial Pursuit a lot, and anytime we didn't know an answer, we would just say, Okay, it's Princess Leia.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 38:59

So, but it's stuck, so now it's like it could be anything. And if you don't know the answer, the answer is Princess Leia. So this is like your thing where the answer is got it. Fair enough. What do you think happened to Annie? And I honestly don't know.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

She got her gun and got the fuck out. I don't know. Um I because I think after everything happened, like between him moving onto Island and him and take uh and him even seeing Richard. When did he see Richard again?

SPEAKER_05 39:38

When was the 70s?

SPEAKER_03 39:40

70s, like after you and he's already there for a while, right? It's hard to tell. I know, but you saw Annie doing the whole the first issues with the hostels, and then because they're in school and then never again.

SPEAKER_05 39:55

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

And I don't know, did Annie?

SPEAKER_05 39:58

Well, after we see her in the school and giving the birthday gift, um the only the only other times that we see Ben in flashback is at in the evenings, first in his home, where it was the same night as the hostiles, and then on a previous on a on a subsequent day when he's running away. Okay, so we but you never see her again. So you never see her again, but then the next time we see Ben. He still has a doll. Ben Ben is older, he's like uh in his 20s.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

I mean, I feel like I don't know what happened to Annie. Maybe they left off the island, maybe their position, maybe their point in the Dom Initiative was over. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 40:46

It it just strikes me as as odd that so I feel like there's two ways of looking at it, right? So one thing would be she left and she was his only friend, she meant a lot to him, and and that's another reason why he really didn't want to be there anymore because he lost his friend. The other way is a lot more dark and twisty in that he cherishes the doll because he sacrificed her in order for him to become the man he is.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

She's one of the people that was my other thought, like she was one of the people that was purged. Purged.

SPEAKER_05 41:26

Yeah. Let's talk about Juliet. Aside from her face, where do you think? I mean, I know you're gonna say Juliet is is in it for Juliet, right? But if you had to choose the others or the A15 survivors, where do you think her loyalty lies? Do you think that she's being truthful to them?

SPEAKER_03 41:55

I think her loyalty lies with herself ultimately, but at the same time, I think she has a deep-seated hatred for Ben. I believe in that, Henry. Ben, yeah. I believe that she I think she truly hates him. So I think um if Ben was her, like if she knew Ben could get her out, she would have stayed. But this point is like, you know what, I'll take my chances with the survivors. Because I hate your funky ass, Ben. But she always has this look like she knows something. And it's just like I still don't I don't trust her at all. And I think I think ultimately is about her, and that she and if she would turn on them if the opportunity if she had it was a chance for her to get home.

SPEAKER_05 42:42

Fair enough. Any thoughts on Naomi yet? Well, you know what? Let's save Naomi for the next episode. Because we'll we'll see a little bit more of her in the next episode. Let's talk about the last scene, the end. As as we all know, those of you who have been on this journey with us, Agnes has over and over and over threatened that that's it. She's done. Locke is killed. I made a promise. Semantics. Why do you think Ben shot him?

SPEAKER_03 43:29

Locke says, uh, Ben'cause I think Ben is fucking crazy, and I really think he thinks he feels the fact that what's his name? Locke heard Jacob.

SPEAKER_05 43:43

Well, that's what Ben says, that he heard Jacob and that's why he shot him.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

I don't know. I think part of it is I because I he knows he's fucking crazy. I think because Locke knows he's fucking crazy, and he can't afford to anyone to know that he's a fucking manipulative psychopath. Or she's keeping him count, he's just he's he's getting rid of loose ends. But this is loss, so who fucking knows?

SPEAKER_05 44:09

I mean, ever since the the first time that we've uh gotten to know Ben Ry, right? When he was still Henry, uh they brought him to the hatch and he said to Locke that he was coming there for you, meaning to Locke. But they've always had like this very distinctive relationship. And it's always it's always been almost like the sibling rivalry type shit. Because first, remember, Ben tried to manipulate Locke using Jack. And he was like, Oh, you always take orders from him and blah blah blah. And and Loc got pissed off. And now it's almost like, well, and then Locke goes into Ben's house and holds Ben captive. And Ben still manipulates Locke. He still gets him to do what he wants him to do. He blew up the submarine, he killed the father. And Locke believes that he has the upper hand. And he forces him to see Jacob, but does he really have the upper hand? Or did he finally get the upper hand? And that's why Locke is like, uh Ben is like, fuck this. Shoot. You know?

SPEAKER_03 45:36

So Ben and Henry, Ben, Ben Henry. Ben and Locke situations making my hand spin because it doesn't make sense to me. You don't think so? Ben doesn't make sense to me. But the whole thing just confuses the fuck out of me.

SPEAKER_05 45:50

Okay. Well, Locke is left gasping for air in the ditch, so we don't know what happened to him. He's not dead. But maybe we'll find out in the next episode. I mean, that'll pretty much do it for this episode. The next episode is called Greatest Hits. It's a Charlie episode. Well, hello there, Charlie. I don't think we've had one of those in a while.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 46:24

And and the Greatest Hits is the penultimate episode before the season finale. So look at that. Look at how far we've come. I know. I know. I mean, it it uh.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Forever.

SPEAKER_05 46:52

Any last words for the man behind the curtain before we shut this shit down?

SPEAKER_03 47:02

You know that's gonna come eventually. Like you can't all right.

SPEAKER_05 47:04

Uh no, no. All right, so thank you for hanging with us this episode. And please come back for the next episode, which will be greatest hits. And in the meantime, please consider supporting our show, either financially or otherwise. All of our contact information is in the show notes. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. That helps us.