LOST White Rabbit

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome everyone to another episode of Sassin's Sips, where every week we will be discussing and dissecting another episode of Lost in Order. I'm Lisa. And I'm Agnes. And we will always do our best to avoid spoilers for those of you who like to watch. We're not experts, just fans who like to drink and dish. So how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_04 0:34

I'm Peachy. How are we doing today?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I'm good.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

What are you stepping on today?

SPEAKER_01 0:40

So I have a hard seltzer.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Nice, nice, nice, nice, nice. I've been I've been trying to be good lately. I'm just having tea. Getting over a cold. So I am teeing it up with my honey and my lemon.

unknown 0:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 0:55

My beautiful voice.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Well, I hope you feel better.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

Why thank you? Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

So, as you heard, she's not feeling very well. So this might be a little bit of a shorter episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

But we're gonna think our listeners are happy for that. Stop.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Our three listeners.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

Three listeners are very concerning, disconcerning taste. So yeah, I can ever respect is due.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

My mistake. Alright. I am gonna read the synopsis that I got off of Lostpedia.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

And before you do that, just I gotta say be when I first saw the title, White Rabbit, I'm like, ooh, this better be a good episode. Like the whole White Rabbit Alice and Wonderland thing. I'm like, ooh.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Yeah, as somebody who loves Alice in Wonderland, it kind of didn't live up to the hype for me.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Neither did me. So I didn't even want to say that so early on, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

It wasn't bad. It just honestly, sometimes I feel like Jack's episode falls a little flat.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

Well, uh Jack falls flat for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

True.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

So that's just my opinion on Jack. Jack is even in my last episode, he I I like to play the model a little bit too much.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yeah. Yeah. I so I've heard.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

So before I interrupted you, you were going to read a synopsis of this episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Yes. Okay. White Rabbit is the fifth episode. The survivors begin to struggle as they realize they are running out of fresh water. Meanwhile, Jack continues to see his dead father's figure on the island. Flashbacks in this episode show a little bit of Jack's childhood and also what Jack was doing in Australia. The episode opens on a young Jack as he lies on the ground in fear of a bully. The bully is threatening his friend Mark Silverman, who's being beaten by another bully. Jack tries to explain the fight to his father, Christian Shepard, who tells Jack about his day at the hospital over a glass of whiskey on the rocks. Christian says that he is able to cope with the difficult job of surgeon because he has what it takes. He claims that he can make life or death decisions daily because even when he fails, he can live with the consequences. He concludes that Jack should not decide, because if he failed, he wouldn't have what it takes. Years later, as an adult, Jack is talking with his mother Margot Shepard. She tells him that his father has gone away to Australia and that she wants Jack to go and get him. He refuses, saying that they haven't spoken in months. She makes her son feel guilty about what he did to his father and demands Jack retrieve him. Did you have any ideas what Jack did to him?

SPEAKER_04 3:59

I kind of run the garment of typical, you know, father something, I'm not talking to you. I I I really can't even begin to imagine what it could be. Um, but I do get the gist that this is not the first time his father has disappeared and ran off and or did whatever. I think his mother has some kind of um maybe some mental it mental illness of some sort. I don't know. So I'm guessing maybe that has something to do with it. Maybe he cut him off on his life or some sh I don't know. I have no idea. Um I know that first scene pissed me off to the highest level of passivity. Uh I don't I don't like a bully. I don't. Gets me angry. I'm a Libra. We believe in justice.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

In a hotel room in Australia, the hotel manager tells Jack that his father hasn't used the room in three nights and that he was involved in an incident in the hotel bar. The manager also says that he didn't rent a car because no one would rent him a car in his condition. Searching the room, Jack finds bottles of alcohol pills in his father's wallet. An unknown amount of time later, Jack walks down the hallway of a morgue. A mortician tells him that the body presumed to be his father's was found in an alley, with the cause of death suspected of being a fatal heart attack brought on by high blood alcohol levels. Jack identifies his father and fights back the tears. With nothing left for him in Australia, Jack heads to Sydney Airport, preparing to board Oceanic Flight A fifteen. Lacking proper documentation, the airline tickets agent refused refuses to allow Jack to store the coffin on the plane. Jack argues with her, explaining that he needs the coffin to be allowed on board because he has all the arrangements set for the funeral and he needs to bury his father so that it will all be over. In these flashbacks, we learn sad news for Jack that his father died. And that's what he was doing in Australia.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

So is this to add something? Because I kind of forgot a lot about this. My god, I just saw this a week ago. So I remember this now. I um so I think he has a uh I think he has a he has some kind of substance abuse problem. I think that goes to his ability to cope and deal with failure.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Are you talking about Jack or his father?

SPEAKER_04 6:18

His father.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

So because he's so strong and he can cope and deal with things because he um has alcohol and substance abuse problems. So I think they're so mad at him. I think his mom is so mad at him. He probably turned him in from medical malpractice of the dude, no. Because is it not the doctor also?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Jack is a doctor and his father was his father's a doctor.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

So I can totally see him doing his father and upbringing while under the influence. Totally see him doing that. And as a response, his father ran off and the heart attack.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

I'll show him I'll have a heart attack.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

Right, like uh, you know, he you know, because apparently I'm gonna I get the gist that he was a big he was a big name in his profession.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

He was the chief of surgery.

SPEAKER_04 7:02

So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Did you know that? Did I really No, I did I don't know if we knew that up to this point, but No, I know now. Alright.

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Because without you, what would I would know nothing. Nothing at all.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

So back on the island, it's day six. Jack is woken by Charlie in a state of panic. The two rush to the shore amidst the crowd of survivors. The screams of a young woman are heard out in the ocean. Charlie says, I don't swim, so Jack dives in and swims to save her. However, Jack finds Boone in need of assistance, as Boone had also tried to save the woman. Jack pulls him back to the beach. The group realizes now it's too late for Jack to go back after the woman, and all they can do is stand there as her screams die out. So so much for the lifeguard. Was that was that rude?

SPEAKER_04 7:57

I thought that scene that scene was a little pungent as far as their situation as a whole, as a group, as survivors on this island. It was really kind of it brought back like it hit home, like our lives can be in can be ended anyway, anytime, and we're stuck here. When you're out in the real world living your day-to-day life, the randomness of life doesn't really hit you. When you're stuck in island with a bunch of strangers, with n you know, for the most part, no hope at this point. That reality is really every day. Your mortality. So that was like a gut punch. Definitely realizing that. Like watching this and then realizing, like, wow, that's deep. For like a 30-second clip. I was like, wow. Or maybe I'm just waiting too much into it.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

But I think that that's part of what makes the show so special in a sense. Because you can take anything at face value, or you can look deeper into it and find deeper meaning.

SPEAKER_04 9:06

Or the writers be like, Listen, let's just write anything, wherever they believe that that's the answer. Just go with it.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Later, while talking to Kate about the young woman whom Jack finds himself responsible for her death, Jack sees a man dressed in a suit, watching from a distance as he had a few days before. Jack asks Kate if she saw him too. She says she did not, and asks Jack how long it's been since she slept. Hurley and Charlie approach Jack to tell him the survivors are running low on water. Boone, angry with Jack for saving him and not Joanna, gets into an argument with Jack asking who made him their leader. Jack, distracted by another appearance of the suited man, runs off after him. I think at this point they all think that Jack is just bonkers.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

I think at the end of this point, I was like, I think Boone was more angry with himself for not saving her and needing help himself, as opposed to being angry at Jack. Because let's say he's like, I could you could have made it. No, dude. You know, logically speaking, I can save you, you're here. Or I can take the chance and leave you here, you can die, and I may still not make it to save her. I mean, that's just mass to me, you know, basic logic. But Bone's a little he's still shows his judgment. He's a little judgmental in my eye, but that's just me. Says the judgmental Libra. That's the pop camel kettle black here.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Claire, who earlier showed signs of heat exhaustion and dehydration, collapses. And when Kate goes to give her some water, it is discovered that someone has stolen what little remained of their water supply. Locke announces he will go into the jungle and search for a source of fresh water, saying he's the only survivor who would know where to look. What makes him think that he's the only one who knows where to look?

SPEAKER_04 11:03

I have to agree with him at this point.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Why?

SPEAKER_04 11:05

Because okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

If he if he knew where there was fresh water before, why didn't he get it?

SPEAKER_04 11:36

Well, because the writers didn't tell him to. Um as far as skill level, I don't believe, as of now, no one has shown any ankling of being able to survive.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Fair enough. I okay. All right, I'll give it to you.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

Right. At least he's been training for a walkabout, like he has some kind of survival skills. Whether they've been put into action or not, I haven't seen anyone who was even close to it. Um, but you have to give him some kind of points for his career. Like he didn't have a career in the military or survival skills. So you gotta say that might not have been his first thing that you know, but he showed some kind of wilderness smart. So I think up to this point he's shown a little bit more. Like he got the he got the the freaking boar.

unknown 12:34

True.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

He fed them. Yeah. So he caught that bitch on all on his own.

SPEAKER_04 12:40

What what?

SPEAKER_01 12:42

And he stared up badass. And he stared down the monster.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

He glazed he gazed up at the monster.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Okay. Sorry. Semantics. Jack finds the suited man at the edge of the jungle, and when the man turns around, it looks like Christian Shepherd, his dead father. After recovering from his shock, Jack chases the man into the jungle. As Jack runs further into the jungle, his father disappears and reappears several times. And the pursuit is punctuated several times by the adding machine sound of the monster. The chase culminates when Jack sees his father closer than he has appeared before and runs toward him full force. Christian disappears once more, leaving Jack to fall down a rocky hill and roll off the side of a cliff. He grabs onto some roots and tries to hoist himself up but is unable to do so. Loc appears and helps Jack get back on solid ground, where all Jack can do is burst into laughter. Let's talk about this scene.

SPEAKER_04 13:48

Yes, shall we?

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Jack is dangling off of a cliff and Locke appears.

unknown 13:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

I just found it e even when I watch it the first time, I was so baffled by how Locke found him.

SPEAKER_04 14:01

I maybe am living in the world of fiction. I am still amazed like with him and the way he got away from the creature. And when he looked like that the way it closed down, the way he was like gazing, like he the look of his face was so knowing. So it says something like wonky happens, I'm like, but what how did that happen? I think of that moment. So this is like he this like he knows, I don't want to say knows, knows, but there's something going on there that I'm like, what in the world of the what in the what the fiction is going on here? So that's just me and my thoughts on Locke and his ability to be at the right place at the right time.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yeah, they're definitely setting him up to be to to be something.

SPEAKER_04 14:53

There's a reason his ep his episode was called a miracle, and I don't think it had all something only to do with his ability to walk.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

But that's just me.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

In a manhunt to find out who stole the water, it is discovered that Jin traded with Sawyer for some water. However, when Said and Kate follow Sawyer to see where he is hiding the water, it turns out that the bottles he traded were the last of his own supply. Jack and Locke discuss Jack's hallucination. And Locke advises that he should pursue it, comparing it to the white rabbit from Alice in Wonderland. Locke tells Jack to put it to rest and consider the possibility that everything happened on the island happens for a reason. He then tells Jack, I looked into the eye of the island, and what I saw was beautiful, referring to his previous encounter with the monster.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Is your white rabbit a hallucination? Probably. But what if everything that happened here happened for a reason? What if this person that you're chasing is really here? That's impossible. Even if it is, let's say it's not. I've looked into the eye of this eye. And what I saw. That was beautiful. Wait, where are you going? Okay. No, you need to finish what you start. Why? Because a leader can't leave.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

I really like this scene. John Locke almost is is like savior like. He comes to Jack's rescue. Literally, when he's hanging off the side of a cliff.

unknown 17:09

And figuratively.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

And yeah, figuratively, when he thinks he's having basically a mental breakdown. And he gives him really good advice. You know, and he he tells him that they all see him as a leader, whether he likes it or not, and he needs to finish what he started because a leader can't lead until he knows where he's going. And I think that that's something that most of us can probably take something from, you know.

unknown 17:38

Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:40

I think there's a s you have to have a little bit of knowing where you came from and knowing where you're going to be a good leader. Like if you don't study the past, you're due to repeat it at the same time.

unknown 17:52

You gotta look towards the future. John, just to update my feelings on John, still my favorite character.

SPEAKER_04 17:59

You have so many layers to him, personally, if you're asking me.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Oh for sure. For sure. Later, night has fallen and Jack sits at a fire. A figure moves behind him and he hears a sound reminiscent of ice rattling in a whiskey glass. He lights a torch and heads into the jungle, following the man. He finds a cave with a spring of fresh water, where he finds some debris from the plane, including what appears to be his father's coffin. Jack opens the coffin and finds it empty. And then he beats the hell out of the empty coffin.

SPEAKER_04 18:42

I guess very telling of his relationship with his father. Like if you couldn't tell that he had a contiguous relationship with his father, now you could.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

I uh It's like you're seeing you're seeing your dead father in what you call a hallucination for the past couple of days. And this hallucination leads you to fresh water and his coffin, but then it's empty. So I mean that's some shit like right there. Like all the shit that your father gave you when he was alive, but hey, he just solved your problem because now you got fresh water.

SPEAKER_04 19:21

I think okay, listen. As a parent and as a child, no one has a roadmap but as a parent. Let's be fair. Yeah, there's no right way. And what is just a little bit? Yeah, absolutely. Um I think that was his way. I think it's not annoying. And you know, he will leadership people. So I think he um definitely black fired. But um I don't think he's ever had malicious attempt ways to start. But that's just me coming to the world of fiction. So like I said, I think I read a little bit too much into some of these things.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

But again, I think that that's part of the fun of this show.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Thank you for co-ciding my insanity once again.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Um back on the beach, Boone gives water to an unconscious Claire. It is revealed that it was Boone who stole the water in an attempt to take responsibility for its rationing. A fight ensues, but Jack returns and interrupts with the speech, saying that he has found fresh water and that they must all band together if they are to survive, because if we can't live together, we're going to die alone. We don't even talk about that creepy doll that they found in the water. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah. I don't yeah, I don't even know what that means, but that was creepy.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

I think dolls are creepy on some level to begin with, um, in this situation.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

I actually agree with you.

SPEAKER_04 21:07

Um I am kinda like the gall of Boone. Like you've like you took it upon yourself to just save the woman. I get it. You for whatever like you you you couldn't make it. You needed help. There's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

No, but Boone.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

But then you're gonna take your frustration out on your like your the the anguish, the anguish you felt about that, you're gonna take it out on Jack. You're gonna be the self-proclaimed dealer of the water. Like, dude.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

It's like Boone wants to be needed so bad. Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

It's like a child.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

It's like he wants to be the savior. We saw that we saw that now when he tries to save um Joanna from drowning. We saw it in the first episode when he was trying to do CPR on Rose. And we saw it when they weren't in the h on the hike and he was trying to take the gun to stand watch and protect everyone. It's like boom, take a seat. Relax.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

I think that's all I think that's why he's so hard to his sister. It's just it's like he has this it's this complex about himself. To make himself feel better, he has it he has to make he has to make someone feel worse. I e Shannon. So yeah. See, this is the reason I didn't like him. Now I know why. I put it up just yeah. I hope he can be deserted, allows him to grow up. Be a man. It's not being a boy like a man child. So yeah, that kinda pissed me off too.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

So we made we made it to the end of the episode. Did you have any overall commentary?

SPEAKER_04 22:50

Yeah, no, not for this episode. I had a couple like, you know, my little smart ass comments throughout, but I'm still trying to this is what episode five. And I'm still trying to I'm trying to love the show. And I like the show well enough. I'm still trying to connect to it and you know be invested. Not invested yet.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

There are a lot of characters that we're gonna come to know. And l like I said to you off the air, the first half for me moves kind of slow of the first season. And there's a lot of pieces to start putting together. So later in the season, I I always feel like the the second half of the first season is where it really starts to get interesting, but then season two picks up and starts running.

unknown 23:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

And so we have to get we have to start getting the pieces and the foundation before we can start building.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

See, and I totally get that. Like as far as the character development, yeah, I I see what they're doing. I'm okay with it. I'm just not like I like the characters well enough to watch it. But the storyline it's I I'm gonna give I don't dislike it yet. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Yet.

SPEAKER_04 24:15

I'm just not yeah, I don't dislike it yet. I'm just not invested into the whole thing yet. You know what I mean? Then I don't think they're giving me enough to as of now to keep me interested. And in just the transparency, if we weren't doing this podcast, I probably wouldn't have watched as many episodes as I have. I probably like watch a couple, come back to it a couple months. Watch a couple, come back to it in a year. Like it's not just it's not something I want to bench watch.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

Yes. There's room for some loving there though.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

I have a little bit of trivia before we close out. It's not really trivia!

SPEAKER_04 24:56

I love trivia.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

I'm gonna I'm gonna do this every time now. Because you like it. It's really it's really nothing much, only because some of some of the more interesting little tidbits will ruin things for you.

unknown 25:13

Copy that, okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

This is this is not the only episode to have a Wonderland title reference.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Mmm, very interesting. I think sometimes the tires alone are enough to dig and delve in for a half hour.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Um, this is the first episode with a flashback featuring both child and adult versions of a character. Ah, yes. And this is the first episode to open with a flashback.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

Ah, it is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

Well, episode five, White Rabbit.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

We chased you, we found our curiosity, and you left us wanting more.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Alright, so let's talk about character now.

unknown 26:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Okay. Off of last week's episode, Locke. Have you has your opinion of him changed since the last episode?

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Nope. Love him more.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Okay. Jack? After having his flashback story.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

Um, I still see the weight of the world on him.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

I think in fairness though, we can understand it a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

I can understand it. Right. I can understand.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

And I think that that's kind of the point.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

I think this episode was his so his his his therapy episode, I call it. Um, because he comes back full force. You know, he comes at an episode ready to, you know, be the leader, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah, in some I'm I'm sorry to interrupt. It's like in some weird way, his father was what it was like one last act of his father kind of helping him.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

Right. So like the you I think he was always saying you have what it takes.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:06

Or at least him saying or him not expecting someone else's validation. I think it's I think it was him being like using this hallucination to come into his own manhood in a way.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 27:21

Like I don't need like, you know, because I think he was falling underweight of his father's opinion. I think this is his his let go moment.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Like, you know, yeah.

unknown 27:32

I'm a believer in myself. I don't need someone else to believe in me.

SPEAKER_04 27:35

No one else, and I say this all the time to my daughter, to my friends, family, no one else determines your worth but you. Um, yeah, you can't let other people determine your value.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

I agree with that, but it's it's hard to get people to see that.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

And I think I think this was his moment. This he had his awakening.

unknown 27:54

And I think that bringing, I think him turning up the coffin was symbolic of that. I don't think it's against his father per se.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

I think he was, you know, bringing that barrier, his own barrier that he put up himself.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

That was his closure. Because when he was at the airport, he told the ticket agent that he needed to get the coffin on the plane, he needed it all to be over. And I think now it was like this moment of closure for him.

SPEAKER_04 28:20

He got it over with.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah. Next episode is focused around Sun. So what do you make of her?

SPEAKER_04 28:30

I can't wait to see this episode. Because I think that first our first podcast, I said, there is so much going on there, and I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yes, and you had some things to say about her, so I can't wait to find out if if you feel like your thoughts were validated or completely off the mark.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

What was my word? Oh, I remember my thoughts. Yes. Um, okay. I am excited to give you my opinion on next week's episode.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Okay. Until then, I am Lisa.

unknown 29:02

And I'm Agnes.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

And please stay tuned for next week, for our next episode where we will discuss House of the Rising Sun. And in the meantime, as usual, we would love to hear any of your thoughts, comments, and feedback. You can reach us at sassinsips at gmail.com. And if you would like to support us, no contribution would be too small. We can be found at patreon.com slash saspod, and any amount would help us cover our podcasting dues. All of our information and contact info will be in the show notes, so don't you worry about how to spell anything. Thank you so much for listening. Please don't forget to subscribe, and please, please don't forget to jump responsible. Until next time, everybody.