SPOTLIGHT on Dr. K McGirt

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Hi, and welcome to this edition of Sassin Sips Spotlight. Today we are going to be talking to Dr. Kay McGert, who is a licensed therapist, certified EMDR, hypnotherapist, and brain spotter. I am Lisa, and today I am sipping on water with some lemon and mint because it's hot as balls here.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

And I'm your co-host, Agnes, and I am drinking a black eye because, you know, coffee drinkers, if you know, you know. And we get to welcome Lisa. Dr. Kay. Dr.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Kay McGurk.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Hey y'all, hey.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Hey. Are you sipping on anything today?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

You know, for the occasion, I got a little sippy sip. However, I cannot say what I'm sipping on, so I cannot confirm nor deny because this is still a work there.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Okay. That is fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

I co-sign that.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

And I can just say that that is a very pretty little cup you got there.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

I like it too.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Let's start the sip.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Yes. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Oh, sorry, my bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

One of the things that we do here before we get into the meat is we ask some silly questions. So I'm gonna go first. And my silly question is which came first?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

The color or the fruit in terms of orange? The fruit?

unknown 1:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

And that's the point, right? They're so silly, like wait, what?

SPEAKER_00 2:01

And we have absolutely no idea what the other one's gonna ask. Yeah. So you see my face like, what? It's genuine. Um is there an actual answer to that question, or is it one of those just like chicken? I don't know. Okay, that's a Google. I must Google that later.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

I don't know. Like did they say, oh, this is a nice color and then and like we'll call it orange, and then there was a fruit, and we're like, oh, it's the same color, we'll name it the same, or was it like, oh, this is an orange, it tastes yummy, it's citrus, and then we're like, oh, I guess we'll name the color that too. I don't know. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

I mean, now that you say that, if they identified the colors of the rainbow before the fruit was even there, the color may have come first.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yeah. Uh no. It's like a titsy roll pot. The world may never know.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

I think the world knows though, but we just don't. I think when it comes to when it comes to me, at least that's always the answer. I just don't know. Um would you rather? I love these. Would you rather be able to teleport or speak fluent dolphin? Teleporting. Teleporting same, because I'm always I got things to go, places to go, things to do. Yes, okay, let me see.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

So this is not an interview in any sense of the word, but I do have a question. And that question is how did you come to being a therapist? Like what motivated you to be in that career and and you know, put you on the path that you are on now.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

I've always had this, like, I don't know, I've always wanted to help.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I've always wanted to help people. And when I started, it was in human services. So it's like, I want to help. What can I do? And we were in Alaska at the time, so they put me on to human services for my associates. And I was like, I want to help, but not that kind of help. I want to, I wanna do the help. I connecting services, yes, that's good. But and so my advisor was like, Have you thought about social work? And I was like, I haven't, because I wanted to be a nurse, but because we weren't going to be there long enough, I was like, I don't want to just sit here for two years and not do anything. What else can I do? Because the program, even in two years, I still might not get in. And so that's how I had that whole career shift. And when they were talking about therapy, I was like, you know what? That would be my jam because I get it, I understand. Like the life that I've lived, my childhood, my traumas. There's there's a way that you connect when you've had that lived experience that someone who hasn't just cannot quite understand. And so I was like, oh, and I've loved it ever since. I'm like, I just want to do more of it. I like being in the background helping. I'm like, that's why I love confidentiality. You and you could tell if you want to, right? But I'm not gonna say nothing.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Nobody has to know, they never have to know.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

I know how would they know? They're gonna know they'll never know. I love that. And then I was like, you know what? I love to help people so much, but how would I be able to help on a larger scale if I don't put myself out there? And so I'm like, okay, let me uh you know I'm shy and I don't want to do things. Let me let me start. And there's all these things that I want to do, and then here come y'all. I was like, okay, you in a barrist.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

So I caught that you were like, that's my jam. And I know that you're also like jazzed and motivated.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

So is that did did one lend itself to the other?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

It's all connected. The jam is actually my children's initials, all three of them.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Oh, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

I love to dance. Anything with music puts me in a happy place. And you feel like that's my jam. Like, I love it. So that's how that all came about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

That's so cool. How long have you been a therapist and and in the space?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Let's see.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Technically, since 2014.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

We have um in our, I don't even know what I'm thinking about right now. What is it called? So, side note, I was in a car accident two years ago. So sometimes like my thinking, my brain is just a little slower because I'm like, I have a TBI. Um but what is that called? Oh, a practicum. You know, as a practicum, we've had our um our clients, but officially in 2016 is when I got the official title. And I've been doing it ever since in my private practice. Um can I tell a third on how that happened? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

This is your episode.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Oh, she goes, Oh, she goes, she gets for prepared for it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

I'm like, she is my spirit animal. Like, I want to be friends in real life. Like when she said dancing, I was like, oh, it's me. I'm her.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Not that far. I'm in Maryland. We can make it happen. He friends.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Three hours, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

So I was in a community mental health agency. And during the George Lloyd uprisings, they did not see how that impacted my community. Focused on the pandemic. And so, like, I would show up with my camera off, and they're like, So, what are y'all doing to stay connected? How'd you gardening? And whoo, but no talk about, hey, how are you doing with this? Mm-hmm. With that. So it was probably like four of us in the agency. Yeah, no. Then they didn't even say his name properly. So in the email, people were saying things in the email. I responded to someone, and then all of a sudden, the email has to get shut down. We can't communicate, right? So I had to leave. You don't value me, my black self, my black life. I'm gonna go elsewhere. I have my private practice. I only I was saying two clients. I was loyal, I'm a loyal person. So I'm like, I was there for my bachelor's internship, I was there for my master's internship. Like, y'all took a chance on me. So I'm going to stay here and write it till the will fall off. But that's where you have me fucked up. Oh, can I not stay this way? Yes. Yes, you can. I didn't ask that at first. So I was I left. I did not have any other clients. I did not know what I was gonna do. I just know I was not going to stay there. And then my husband at the time came home that same day talking about so I'm laid off because there's no work for us right now because the pandemic. So I'm like, okay. I said, well, I'm gonna make it do what it do. I was working like 16, 19 hour days.

unknown 9:26

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

And I made it do what it do because my life matters. That's what we do anyway. Right, right. Yes, exactly. That is what we do anyway. Oh, right? That's what y'all we gonna, we gonna make something. We're gonna do what we have to do regardless. I regardless. I don't this may be a little judgy, but um I'm judgmental, never that. The woe is me people and the woe is me is never really a big thing at that. I'm just like, if you don't get out my face, first of all, find a problem. That's one. Two, do something about it. Because I I yeah, I just we don't have much compassion for the woe is me people. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

I there's but so much energy, even I allow to give myself, I'm like, all right, feel it, cry about it, do feel whatever you feel, but it ain't gonna solve any problems. So that's it. What what take the day if you need the day, but then tomorrow we gotta figure it out because I don't know about you, but in my life, solutions don't just rain down from the sky. So you know, we just we can't like we can't sit here and say, Oh, I guess I don't know what will happen. I guess something no, we have to figure it out. And I feel like also as women, uh so many times it just it's up to us. It's up to us to make it happen.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

So I love that though.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Like that's that's such a success story, like that is the success story. I mean, I can't even imagine how that must have felt to not be seen for who I am on many levels, but looming pandemic, and then your husband is out of war. Holy shit. But I'm I'm glad that you made it a success. Like I want everybody to win. I want everybody to succeed, and I'm glad that you did.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

I think, and I the pandemic allowed it, was hard too many people died over this, but it also allowed a lot of people to realize their dreams and really tap into their own potential. They're like, oh, I can't do this. It's just a hobby. Meanwhile, like, girl, you got skills, do something with it. And it actually allowed a lot of people to do what they loved. Because they had to, but at the same time, but it also gave them that it gave them that strength and the what the reason to do something they they normally wouldn't have done. And it's really the best thing that ever happened to them. Yes, I'm grateful for the pandemic. Now I wish that it could have happened without the lives being lost. However, that I would not be a virtual stay at home, you know, if it didn't happen. Because before clients, like, I'm not doing that. I need to be in person, I need to be there, I need to see you. It was never a thing. And now it opened up this opportunity. Like, I can practice from anywhere. Right. That's amazing. Yeah. I'm healing. We're with my kiddos, where I'm trying to cook down, like all of the things. And I was like, I'm going to turn this into something that's going to benefit me because you ain't gonna. I wish I would let y'all. So some of my listeners may um wonder, they're wondering right now, what is brain spotting? I've heard of it.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Well, I I was wondering that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Tell us about brain spotting.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Can you talk about all of the oh well, all the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Also, give it to her in bits and pieces a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

I I actually have a degree in psychology. I don't know what brain spotting is, though. Yeah. I have I I didn't go further than my BS. Uh-huh. But I, you know, but I mean I would like to. But I don't I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah, brain spotting essentially it's where you look affects how you feel. And so y'all can try it really quick. Like, think of um, we'll do do y'all want to do like happy or like do you want to elicit like with sadness or like what do you want to do like happy? Let's do happy. All right. Think of some like what is your most happiest moment? And you don't have to say all I just want you to think about it. Now hold that spot with your eyes. See where you looked? Uh-huh. So you looked up and over and then over there. Yeah. So if you go there, if you try it again, if I say think of your most happiest moment, think of it, and then wherever your eyes go, just try to hold it.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Okay. Okay. Ah. Okay. What do y'all notice? It's like peaceful.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

It's calm. It's calming.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

God, for a second, I was on a Zoom call.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Sorry, nothing kiss you, but it's it's a testament to you, though, actually. Yeah, thank you. So that is what brain spotting is. There are different setups that you can do. That is a gaze spot. And so the same with working with trauma. If we're thinking about something that is hurtful, harmful, you know, traumatic, and we're holding it and we're opening it, we're starting to update that information. Same with EMDR opening up that information. Hypnosis can take us to a different place as well. So I like to blend it all together. And I'm neurodivergent. Um, I love to be all over the place and use different things and pull at any point in time. I'll instantly just add something that that client needs. I listen to the client. I'm very attuned with my clients. I legit just visualized you doing like picturing. You know that on TV, the TV shows, and they have like those cool computers and they can pull from the computers. I've just mentally visualized you doing that mentally, like in your little mental palace and just pulling from the different rooms and just throwing. Okay, I'm totally girl crushing on you. Sorry. A little inappropriate. Uh that says well, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

So, what about EMDR? How does that work?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

So, um, it's the same with eyes. So eye movement, you know, Robin Shapiro. I'm like, I'm trying, okay. Let me not be technical.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

No, that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

I like I don't want it to feel like that. I just like to just be free, but your eyes, or you could do tapping, and that helps during the processing of information. And so I've heard the tapping a lot. So what it does is like if we have our brain, this is like the outside, it's the neocortex part of the brain, it's our thinking brain, and that's usually where we are throughout the day. If you're really left brain, really communication heavy, you're really in it. And what EMVR allows us to do is to go deeper down into the subcortical part of the brain, like the mammalian part to like you can go in utero, you can do infants, it's like pre-verbal. It allows you to go deeper than what your left brain is. So we like to get activated in the right brain.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Okay. I've in my previous life as a doula, I used to use touch a lot with my clients because it's it's such a good way of refocusing the energy from the shift from oh my god, I can't, like, this is intense, this is you know, everything that's going on to and especially like this, like just the simple feel just feel my hand and f you know, close your eyes and follow my hand. And so that used to work a lot. So I think it's a very similar um premise. Premise, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yeah, it's a way to ground. Um in my profession, we are you know hands off unless we have we ask permission to hands off and things. So that's a great grounding. And another thing that I'll do is make shit up off the top of my head. But if it works, right, just because it's I was like, okay, how can I de-escalate? And I thought of a lava lamp because I'm old and that's the person that came to mind. So when I debated and I'm on screen, you know, I just started doing this.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

As a lava lamp, and that was able to bring them down and ground them. Okay, yeah, so just like the touch, it's like something that you can connect to, or just let me ground in this space because when you're outside your window of tolerance, you're not able to remember what you said or what somebody said to you. Like when people be like, I was mad, yeah. Yeah, they're not gonna remember, or I didn't say it like that. And they're like, Yeah, I remember. Yeah, you did. You did right. We've all been there, like completely spazzed out, blacked out for a minute. Yeah, so do you find being remote? Obviously, you're you're more accessible to people. Do you find that there's a disconnect with connecting with your clients? No, I find for myself, I find it adds more. So in person, I'm not seeing you on certain days, I'm not seeing, especially when daylight savings come. I'm not seeing you during certain hours because I need to think about my safety. You know, like some people that will harm you. You know, there was somebody who was stabbed in the eye with a piss. I'm like, that's not gonna ever be me. So I could be here in the safety of my own home. I can see you whenever I want, whatever time I want, because I am here. You are there. You don't have to worry about gas money, you don't have to worry about traffic, you don't have to worry about being late. All you have to worry about is logging in with an internet connection, and that's it, and wherever you are as well. So that's also saving my client time. So instead of, okay, I can't have to close the session a little early, I have to ground you, make sure you're okay because I can't let you leave the office. I mean, you could do what you want, but I don't want you to leave the office and then you're driving and you dissociate because of what we just processed and worked on. But if you're at home, you can go lay down, you can go get your little snacky snack, you can do whatever you need to comfort yourself. You may have your you know emotional support animal with you. And so I think virtual is so much better. And to each of their own people want that interaction and that closeness.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Yeah. And I think that it's important for people to have the option because one person may really, really prefer to be in person, but the next person may prefer this because they don't do well in in that space, or they don't want to travel, or they don't want to leave their animal, or whatever it is. So I think that it's so great that there are these options and that you are giving them this option.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

I think it's great. And you know, I can't just shout out to the pandemic. I wouldn't have been able to. So again, I think it's part of also who I am. My people, like we make the best out of it anyway. So we go make we go make it do what it does, but like I mentioned earlier, that is also it makes us a threat. And so it's like, okay, just like that. Hold on. I'm not saying that I need this, not saying that this will do anything.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Now you just need the the water to to clean it.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yes, absolutely hydrating.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Let's let's all hydrate.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Make sure my throat is clear. Let's get that mic on. Let me clear my throat because she's about to go in. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

I'm ready. Because when John Hopkins did that study, that black folks don't feel pain. Pain? Well, what do you want us to do?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

We do feel pain, but because we're gonna keep it pushing, we still gotta cut, we still gotta take care of our family. We're not, we can't, we're not privileged to be like, and somebody takes care of us. But that does not mean we don't feel pain. Just because we keep it rolling and keep it pushing and we always find the solution, it doesn't mean that we're immortal, we're just somehow different than you. You can do what the f you wanted to, but you don't. So now we're punished for what you seem to not be able to do. But to do, or too lazy because when we Do you feel pain? It's like, oh, it can't be real. It was not is ignored. I don't have time to be disfirst of all. I don't have time to look for someone to believe me. I don't have time to be dismissed. I have to do X, Y, and Z. And then you want me to save you on top of it. We're not doing that. That's not that's not happening anymore. Oh, I just there's so much harm in the medical system. I remember like my ears are really sensitive. And I went in for earache, and the doctor didn't know me at all. It's not like it was my primary care. It's like when whoever's the next available when you schedule your appointment. And she said, What's it gonna take for you to quit smoking? I said, I've never smoked in my life.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Like, oh well, usually that's the cause of your you didn't. You don't know. You don't even know.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

But I already just asked. So you're a smoker. You didn't you didn't even ask. Don't care. Right? You labeled it. If I'm telling you about pain, I come in and this thing. What would you what would you like me to prescribe? Oh, so now you think I'm a drug seeker? So now I want you to prescribe something that's gonna work. You're the medical professional. Right. So that's another reason why they think we don't feel pain because we don't want to deal with that. I'm not going to the hospital or a doctor unless it's severe. If you see me at a doctor's office, I could kind of are you okay? That's what I need. Because everything else I got at home. I could do because you're gonna just add more trauma to me, and that's gonna add more to my body that I don't need. I mean, I don't feel the pain. I just don't want added pain. How about that? Yeah, yeah. And then don't let's not forget that the emotional pain that we have to go through, and that's and I'm a huge proponent on um that trauma is actually embedded in our DNA. Because there's still trauma, there's things that we are affected by from our ancestors that they've gone through, and it just gets passed on. I'm not gonna talk about like breaking the cycle. This is things are in our DNA that we just don't even realize. We have to make a conscious effort and like, what is this? What am I feeling? Why am I feeling this? There's no reason today that Agnes should feel X, Y, and Z because she hasn't experienced A, B, and C. So let's go back and we have to play like anthropologists on top of doctor, on top of mother, on top of wife, on top of nursemaid, on top. Yeah. Um that um post-traumatic slave syndrome, I couldn't even finish it yet because it I was so I was now like, I cannot read this. However, there's a part in there, there are two parts. One, it was saying something about like how they were in a bank and there was this little white kid running around and playing, and the mom had, you know, the little black kid, you're close to me. Mm-hmm. Thinking back to, and then when they also say, like, if somebody gives them a compliment, oh no, no, you should see him at home. He is a nightmare, right? And it's like, how come you're putting your kid down? Well, back in the day, they they snatched y'all. You were taking thought about that. If you were great. So I gotta make, I gotta dim you down. I don't really mean it, but I don't want my kid to be attractive to you. I don't want you to be like, ooh, yes, but you're gonna take my kid. If you are running around in this, like they they could snatch you. It's a safety thing. Not that I don't think that you're you could be c no. So it's all from safety. There was a kid who, you know, went home and was like, they're getting bad grades, and it's like my teacher doesn't like me. What is your teacher not like and you gotta do anything? Well, because you don't see me. I don't want to show, I don't want to do anything. Like when you give me something like, oh, you could be the line leader, you could do this. Like now I want to give, I want to be invested. But if you sit in there, like I don't, I'm I don't want to do it. I'm not stupid. I just don't want to do nothing for you. It's the same thing, and it's okay, I've noticed when as an adult, when we're I'm not, I'm gonna work my wage. I like that. I really do like that now. I'm gonna work my wage because I'm not appreciated. And as adults, that's respected. But as a child, to say, I'm getting back grades because my teacher doesn't like me. It's the same thing. It truly, it's probably more detrimental to development. Um, so it goes back to giving our children some a little bit more respect and listening to our children. I think we're doing that now. And they don't like, then we're a problem. Because listen, I advocate for my kids. I'll never forget there's some I have so many examples, y'all. We might have to do another episode. But let me tell you the twenty-five.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Put it on the books, you got the link. I said, put it on the books, you got the link.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Okay, I'm listening. You're gonna be like, what the hell I'm gonna book out, Rick Hatchine? But the teacher told my son, well, told the whole class, when you are finished with your test, do something quietly, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

So him and his friend were playing tic-tac-toe quietly, because they were both done. Teacher walks up, snatches the paper, crumbles it up, and throws it away. So they're looking like, what happened? Did one of us say something? I don't know. So let's really be quiet. Gets out another piece of paper, they're doing it again. The teacher then tells him to leave, my son, to leave the classroom because he's disrupting, because the other students were like, he's not even saying anything. They're not talking. You said do something quietly. So now the whole class is erupted because of her, but she put that on my son. So now I'm gonna go up to this school and have a little conversation. The assistant principal's like, okay, thinking I just want to protect my son. I'm just a mom who thinks their kid is always right. And I can tell I'm not being hurt. I need an appointment with the principal because this ain't okay. And you're gonna take his phone off. I'm like, you don't take my kid's phone. You don't allow him. I'm adding stuff in there, but here, let me, it's my neurodivergence, y'all. Y'all stay with me, okay? So I'm gonna put with you. All right. So I go, my son tells me that he couldn't call me because I told him to hold him accountable if if y'all, if there are any outbursts, I'm sorry, but you cannot play in your championship football game. So I'm gonna need you to try to just keep it together, cool and everything. So there was a no, there was an incident. He tried to call me, let me know up front, and he couldn't. And then say, how why are they why did they take your phone? Why wouldn't they allow you to call me? I had a stone musical punishment. Why wouldn't they allow you to call me from the office? Think you should do that. If you want to call me, you can call me. So I'm like, listen, I tell my kid, listen, don't have me going up there looking silly. Tell me from start to finish exactly what happened. So I already know. I already know. Yeah, I'm I'm equipped with everything that happened. So I walk in there and I was like, hi, um, I'm confused. I would like to speak to someone because my son wasn't allowed to contact me. They're like, No, mind you, I knew it was her because he already told me. So I'm like, I'ma let you, I'm gonna let you let you have this one. So she goes back and gets the principal and everything, and it's taking a while, and I got shit to do. And then she comes back. She's like, Mr. So-and-so will be right with you. I said, you know what? Can you just call my son down? Then he could tell me. So like, no, we're just gonna wait before they says.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

I said, Are you denying me access to my son? I said, okay. So then she calls him down he's on his way. So then she goes, Mrs. McGurt, is it? Mm-hmm. She said, Okay, it was me.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Really? So why are we doing all of this? Surprise, right? Right, why? You didn't think you're gonna get back to this other pen now. So then the the teacher comes in and I'm like, so what it sounds like is you intentionally making stuff up but not liking the activity that he chose because you were not specific. So like he knows that that was as I act. No, no, no, my son is neurodivergent, just like I am. And it's literal. If you say do something quietly at your desk, motherfucker, do something quietly at your desk. Quiet at your desk. Right. Right. So then she was like, well, when I say do something, you know, you're not supposed to say I have not raised my children like that. If they have a question, I will answer it. It is them trying to learn their environment. She's like, Well, my kids, if I say do something, they do it. There's no question. I was like, well, we don't she went in. So I went to get up and he went there. She's like, Oh, what you you're scared? Now you're scared. My back is against the wall. It's the principal, the assistant principal, and her across from me. The door is over there. I'm just getting up to leave because you're not about to play in my face. And now you have to come across the table and swing because you know you're full of shit. That's why. Right. But yeah, she's a victim. She's feeling, she's feeling uh you're too aggressive. Oh dare I say anything instead of just go with it. Like she got her kids in order. I said, you need to say, when you are finished with your test, you either do A, B, or C. Right. And then she was mad because the principal told her to make it a thing in her classroom. So that's what she had to do. Because you got me messed up thinking that's not okay. And then the principal, listen, she was like, not allow him to call. Who did that? She was like, listen, if that was my mom, she wouldn't care if you were the president of the United States. And you know that principal looked like me. That's why she got it. But the one that like me was like, oh, so you weren't just trying to just protect your son. No, you wasn't listening to nothing I said. Nothing I had to say. Because you already had it made up in your mind.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Right.

unknown 32:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

And so I love the work that I do when I also empower parents to advocate for their kids because they're afraid of what could happen. And I get that as well. I was recently harmed by a pain psychologist just a few weeks ago. Because, and this is my room is a little dark, and I'm just, you know, looking like and I'm doing this, right? And then I don't know, I can't remember exactly what she said because it took me out of my window of tolerance. But she accused me of something. And I said, ooh, that's an assumption. And she was like, ooh, tell me more. Because I'm back in my wood. Like the trigger, I don't even know what she said because it was triggered. Then I had to ground myself. We got this. We got this, we got this. And I said, that's an assumption. I said, you can't tell me that I'm whatever I can't remember. Because you didn't ask. But it was along the lines of, I'm not invested, I'm not paying attention, or something like that. I said, as a neurodivergent person, one, I don't like eye contact all the time. Two, you don't know what I'm doing over here. I could be doodling. I could be, it could be a STEM that I'm doing over here and I'm looking down. You could ask me what I'm doing versus accusing me of doing something. And she was like, okay, well, I uh I apologize if I'm like, chill. Right? Because I still need help. This is another thing that we we navigate. Yeah. Okay. This is a risk. Am I willing to take it or not? So now I'm like, okay, I gotta pacify your film a little bit because I really do need help from this accident. So I'm talking like this. And then she tried to pull a me on me, which she ain't me and couldn't do it. But she was, you know, what would be beneficial for you? I said, to treat me like a regular schmegular client. Right? And she was like, Well, what makes you think I'm not? I said, I don't know if you are or not. She was like, Well, isn't that an assumption? I said, No, because I didn't say that you weren't. You asked me what would be beneficial, and I told you what would be beneficial. I didn't say you're not treating me like a regular client. Like, you tried it. And she was like, Well, do you don't think that you're perfect? She cut me off as I'm talking. You don't think that I need to take that into account? No, I don't. Because I'm a therapist, I don't need you to take that into account. And we took 30 minutes of my session going through stuff like that. And do you know? And I just thought I tried to go real fast. So, like, she's like, Do you have any questions about the video? And I was like, Nope. So in my medical documentation, do you know this thing? Set it up to like, I'm just aggressive and I'm angry. She's like, I have difficulty with neurotypical people. Like, not because you asked me, but the way that you just flipped that, and I was only offering one-word sentences. Like, what am I supposed to say? And it was funny because I was an ass in it because I felt it. And then the next time I said, No, I do not have anything. Like, I was really overly dramatic. Okay, like you really need that. And so I vented some um two of my friends. They're like, you need to make a complaint. And I was like, I would, except I'm also seeing a neurosurgeon there. And it's John Hopkins. So I don't know how they did do that survey over there. We don't know how they're gonna. And then if she talking and put whatever, how they gonna see me if I make this complaint, I don't want to die on that table.

unknown 36:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

I can't say anything right now. I need to meet with this person first. Like, but you deserve, I know what I deserve. I know how to advocate, and my life is on the line. And we're still being like, oh no, they're not gonna listen. If that's not Joco, then that's not how you but it's a real fear, it's a real possibility that can actually happen. We've seen it happen. We've seen it in history. It has happened, not even in history, it happens every single day.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

But I'm saying, but but people don't value certain people's lives, and they will at their expensive so blackball you for the rest of the what's within the within the john within the university.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Right. That one little notation in your notes can screw up your whole medical journey. Yeah, so it it's a real fear. But then once he said I didn't need surgery, oh you best boom. It's on it popping. Hey was it there's still review, it was weeks ago. There's still review. I haven't heard back about the investigation yet. So either y'all ignore it or y'all really doing it. I don't know, but I know my life is on the line because I don't need that surgery. So now I could advocate for myself. People don't understand what we have to navigate. So listen, I think it's not black and white. We have to we have to play chess with every single thing that we do day to day. Go into the grocery store. Which line do I get in? It's it's it it's it's tiring. It's it's a point where you don't even know you're doing it. So I was like, yeah, this is my everyday. Like I can't Yeah, it is so sad. In my doctorate program, we were in a consultation. There was only like six of us, and I'm the only one that looked like me at that moment. And so I waited for everybody else to go. You know, because you gotta know you're a quite usually usually I don't say shit because of these types of experiences, but it's about a client. I'm about helping, and I feel like I would be doing like a disservice to myself if I'm hearing something and I can offer it and I don't, especially in a consultation setting. So I was like, I and I offered something. That listen, and the people before me, I was like, oh, that I would not that can cause this because of this, this, and this. So then I really felt compelled to share. Why did the professor say, no, no, that's not EMDR? Are you kidding? Are you serious? No, uh-uh. That's not EMDR. And I just okay. Because one, you're not about to make me look any kind of way. I'm not about to give you what you want. If you don't want to that's what they want. Yeah. Don't take the gym. So I'm just sitting there. And then I don't know if she noticed or what, but she was like, What what what makes you think that that's EMDR? Well, as a certified EMDR approved EMDR consultant, this is what I share with my consultees. Then all of a sudden, I gotta pass to sit at the table. Oh, really? I'm not even a consultant. Okay, and and and next class, guess who was absent because they were taking an EMDR refresher course. Oh right. Like that's a one to be honest, to be completely honest, that's the only reason I got my doctorate, is so that people will take me serious, serious. And even then, it's a it's like pulling teeth. Right. The fact that we have to um before we have a say a word out of mouth, we have to list our credentials to say, I am worthy, as opposed to someone who does not look like us, who doesn't have a high school education. And then taken as, oh, they're worth it, you know, it's it's facts. I'm like, you can't spell facts. So how are you?

unknown 40:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

But okay, go off.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Exactly. It is it is it's funny, but it's sad and true.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Um yeah, I mean, I think I think too, part of it is no offense. I think you're a lovely person, Lisa, okay. I don't take offense because I know like I'm like, you get it, you're you're like one of my people, and I could laugh I can I can feel okay to laugh. If she was not here and it was another, I probably wouldn't. I probably I may get offended, like, mm-hmm, like demon, like how can you like laugh at that? So I think that's part of it too. But like I said, I think you're lovely, but like I don't hold that again.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

No, no, no. And and I listen, I understand. I know what I look like. I know how people view me when I go out into the world. I think you got some, um, to be honest, I don't think you're she's swirly. Oh, yeah. My my daddy is dark, it's undercover. But my my my kids don't look like me, my sister doesn't look like me, my husband doesn't look like me. So I I know from the peripheral, and I I can never say that word properly, but You did this now, though. Did I? Because it didn't feel right coming out. Um it didn't taste right. But I I know my worries for them because I hear things when people think it's okay to talk in front of me because I look like this and they think, oh she's yeah, she's she's okay. So I hear what's said. I he I see how people don't hide their shit. And and sometimes that makes me even more scared because I'm like, Jesus Christ, like if this is how people think that it's okay to behave, what happens when my my daughters are out in the world by themselves and like I'm not there to protect them? When my husband is, you know, driving while brown and like I'm oh my my I mean my dad doesn't drive, he doesn't go out too much, but like still it's you it's always, always a fear that I carry for the for my loved ones. Like and I know that I have this privilege. And I'll be damned if I don't use it to help wherever I can. And if that means that I sit here and I keep my mouth shut so that you can speak, then that's what I'll fucking do. I don't I don't care because even just listening to you, I feel like I don't have maybe the same personal experiences with maybe not having a doctor listen to me or believe me. But when you're telling stories about advocating for your children, I've had the exact same thing. I've said the exact same thing, like, don't make me look like an ass. Tell me everything and and I will be there. The way you said about on a conference, about having someone literally say to you, Oh, like I need your attention, like what are you doing? You don't know what I'm doing. But yet you felt that it was okay to say that to me. And it's like when we stop and we listen to other people, whether they're they look like us, they're different from us, whatever, we always will find so much more that we can have in common than different. But it's about shutting the fuck up and letting them talk, letting them speak, letting them be heard, and learning from each other. But I I know I know, I know, and I and believe me, you, I will not take I promise I will not take any offense because this is this is why I want to do this, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

I tried to offend her, and this doesn't work. No, no, but even just you being able to, I could tell, because you didn't interrupt either one of us and say, well, or have you thought? Fragile people do, but it's not all, it's not every. You know, I told dear white woman, please come home. It's unfortunate. But not it's an amazing book. I suggested it to a palm-colored person. I say, Well, I'm well, but just just as long as you know that that's not every black person's experience. Well, I I didn't move forward with it because you already not about to negate me and my experience. How do you know it's not you talk to us? How many of us you talk to to know that that's not our experience? Trust me, it's enough. I had one white man tell me once that racism isn't real and it's a social construct from the media. And I said, Well, I said, are you telling me that my experience my personal experience aren't real? Oh, but they never happened. I said, What you're gonna do now is to get that out of my face and sit down somewhere. And we work together. I'm like, and I could I very professionally cursed his ass out. Um I didn't know what to laugh or just curse, like it was like you're real I can't actually believe this. I'm like makes them feel better. Like when they Yeah, I was like, he gave me wrinkles around my eyes because I'm like, you can't be that stupid. I can, but they can. But they can. We see it every day. Yes, it is wild that there is so much, and it's like, look at all of this hurt and pain just because you feel you know some type of way. You think that you're superior, and now you're mad because you're not living up to it, but when you look and see us, you're mad. So you want to dim our light and remove us so then you can really feel like you are what you're not. What the heck? And I know a lot of people are, well, what do you mean you're not doing anything? I'm not doing anything. That whole 92% out on brunch, yeah, I'm not doing anything. I really don't care about you or your feelings right now. We worked too hard to try to get us together, and you did not want to listen, so you're on your own. Because the world is at this point, the world, and I was telling Lisa, and it's indicative of just the way history is, everything has to burn down to grow stronger. Like through therapy. Sometimes you have to the therapy to break it all down so you can build it up again. We are now like that as a country. So I'm like, okay, we're all gonna burn. Right. I'm gonna have a margarita. You know, I'm gonna do my best to keep my, you know, I have a young daughter. She's not young, she's a grown-ass woman. I got two grandsons. I'm like, I've I'm fearful for them. I'm like, walk around with their birth certificates.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

I don't, because you know, I I have my my family's passports and birth certificates, it's all in a go bag. And I'm like, I hate that I live this way. I hate that I'm not worried about what's for dinner, and instead I'm worried about where are we going, who are we gonna be with, and who can access that information if I need to? Like right.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

But I'm still drinking my margarita now because it is what it is. Yeah, that like just to have that experience, like that is so sad, and that's how we are brought down as people who are not like a hundred percent Caucasian, because that is weighing on you. That is like stress on your body, which weighs on your heart. But that is heavy to have that worry. Like, if you don't come home and start, uh oh, did this happen? Like, that that's what harms us is this racism. It's and the misogyny, because we have to worry about being attacked at every so as women, I don't I'm I don't say I'm afraid to leave my house, but I am you kind of have to be on guard with everything physical, emotional, mental. There's no break. Yeah. And you're like, okay, you know what we do? We do what we gotta do. We do can be pushed on. That's why I'm not really negatively impacted by what's happening. I'm like, yeah, we've been. We've been to Lisa. I'm like, this is this is nothing, this is nothing new. I don't care. Not that I don't care. Right, right, right, right. It hurts me to see others hurting. So that's why I even love working. I work with all people. You work with them, what? Yeah, because listen, if I could plant anything for them to even come to see me, one says a lot. Right. That's my job. However, if I can reach or if I can implant, if I can do anything to help somebody who wants to be helped, that's what Katania is gonna do. And it is so powerful. And yet it can also be really harmful, especially if you are being harmed in your own therapy. That is one thing I call mouth. I'm not afraid, listen, I am not afraid to be fired. I'm not. So I'll call you out in a heartbeat. Oh, smile on my face. Oh, like, hi, like, hi, this is what's happening. So you understand the blue or I'll say, oh, what's funny? I want to laugh too. And I find that I kind of use I am, I live now in Wisconsin. Um, I I was retired for a long time, went back to the workforce part-time. And when I started working there, um I think it was like one of like a handful of people of color at the time. So here is this black woman from New York. So they're like, oh, she's exotic. Oh, she's a little scary. Ooh. And I I'm not gonna lie, I use it to my advantage. I'm like, okay, okay, you're afraid of black women? Bat. Let me use it to my advantage. I need you to do your job. Right. So you don't want to piss up the black woman from New York? Okay, whatever your motivation is, I just need you to listen to me. And it and it's I I gotta use those stereotypes and those false fears to my advantage. And I'm um I'm personally okay with that. Like as women, we do it too. Like, oh, can you reach that for me? All right, fine.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

You know, there's all different levels.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

I got you know the little trans picker uppers. I bought one of those to get like I'm I I'm a I got it person. I got it, I got it, I got it. So my kids reach it, oh I think put it back. Put it, put it back.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

Like, uh there's all different levels of that, right? Like something, you know, like when you're walking down the street and a man is like, oh, hey, and you don't want to talk to them, but you smile and say hi because what else are you gonna do? You don't you don't want that confrontation. And I'll admit, like sometimes I wonder how I'm still alive because sometimes I forget and I'm like, shit, I shouldn't have said that.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Right, because you have to be nice, but not too you'll be nice enough that they don't get angry at you, but not too nice when they think you want to talk to them. Right. I got on that a long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

I was like, you know, growing, I I don't I can only speak as somebody growing up in New York City. You know, the trains, the walking, all times of day, all times of night. Yeah. And it can be scary because yeah, in this city where there's so many people, but sometimes you do find yourself alone. And it's what do you do except play along because you know that that's the safest way out of the situation. And when you don't play along, now you're a bitch, now you're this, now you're that, and fuck you, and you don't know if it's gonna escalate from the verbal assault to something else, and it sucks. It sucks. It's like one more way that we just have to shut up and take it because we want to stay alive, right? And I I wish that I had more courage, more to to to not play along, to not have to, but it's not it's not a lack of courage.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

It's not a lack of courage. It's not courage, though. It's keeping you safe, like doing what you need to do to keep yourself safe. Like I give people my number. If they ask for it at the club, okay, you're gonna get it. Because I still remember that woman that got shot in the face for saying no. I went to my work number. So, and then they stand there and they call it, but it rings to my same phone. So they say, Oh, okay. You're not about to murder me. Yeah, you got my number. Yeah, part with it, because I'm gonna block this right away, right? Right, but I'm not about to say no, you're not because you could flip out, and it's not worth it. Right. It's not about not right, like not having not being it's y'all know what I'm trying to say. Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right, right. I see you. We're good. How that works, like you're afraid of me. What did I do to you? What are you afraid of? Like, you gotta work on that. We need to put some kind of program or something together, and you're not about to have me walking on eggshells because you feel away. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

But you always have to. And and it's not just with strangers. Sometimes, I know for me, sometimes it's within my house. It's not not because I'm afraid of like physical harm, but yeah, I just want to argue, or I just don't want to like be bothered, or at work, or at the supermarket. And I'm and I'm sure that my struggles are not the same as other people's, or you know, but either way, we all still have to modify ourselves because we're women. And and you know, and it's fucking ridiculous. Like, I'm so sick and tired of it. Like, we should just send all the men to the island somewhere, like Alcatraz. All of them, listen, not all of them. No, not all of them. But we just we leave them in the basement and we allow them to come up when we need them. I tell my husband all the time, I'm like, if I could afford it, I'd buy you the house next door. Like, you just come over.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Ideal. That's what I want. If I get our houses side by side, we can have like a skyway engine. Yeah, yes. And I'll you got your space, I got mine. Yeah. We can have sleepovers, but other than that, that's your space, that's what's my space. Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

Well, your stuff gotta be there too.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

That's like, I don't know. That's just so sad. That's just so sad. And I'm I'm trying to make a core I do listen, I do a lot of stuff. And people are like, Italian, why you gotta do so much? What are you trying to prove? I got one life to live. If I have a passion, I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Like when people make fun of one hit wonders, I'm like, why are you making fun? How many hits do you got? That's probably all they wanted to do. They had the experience, they went on it. It's not for them, they did it. Mm-hmm. Checked out the bucket list. Right. But even if it didn't work out, they did it. They put themselves out there. Right. They took a chance on themselves. Yeah. How is that? That's a flex, a win.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

And you gotta do what makes you happy. If it makes you happy to be busy, to to stay on your path, who cares? You're doing it, you're happy. As long as you're not hurting someone in the process, yeah, go for it. Be happy, do you? Like, you know, it I I don't understand why we're all like so worried about what everybody else is doing. Mm-hmm.

unknown 56:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:11

If I sit on my couch all day and watch TV, how does that hurt you? If I go and walk from here to California also, what what difference does it make? Like Right. Why are you open my business?

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Worry about you and yours. Like, I think that's why I was meant to be a tourist because listen, I am stubborn as hell and I'm gonna do undo. And I don't care. Like you can say what you want, but I'm creating a course for folks of like for I hope. I'm like, I don't know how they'll take it, like if they'll actually seek it out, but I'm gonna try maybe it could be a workshop or something, but like for these for these types, but also us too, because there's a lot of internalized stuff, and we harm our own sometimes, and it's like, how come? Like, were your and I really I legit think this, were your ancestors the ones who were friends with the slave master and beat us? Because that's what this feels like. Like you can be funny with them, you harm it like you don't see like see it's that's just them people. What are you talking about? You realize you're one of you were the same, right? Because and I some it I feel I wonder if it's still back to that generational trauma and that's embedded into a DNA where they don't even know why they're doing it or why they feel the way they feel. Um, like, do you want acceptance? Because if you as a person feel that you need acceptance from anyone else, whether it's a group or a person or whatever, you feel like you're not enough. That's something you as a person need to work on, not making your people, you know, downgrading them even more. Right. Like it's not fault that this is happening to us, it's the people who went over there and don't eat on you. Like, and I'm so glad there's representation. Like, I got a big ass forehead. People make fun of me all the time. I'm like, that's fine, but look at Tyrone. I got I got a five head. Hello, yes. Well, Rihanna is beautiful. Tyron's beautiful. It's like, it's okay, love on yourself. That's what we didn't have. We didn't get to see, you know, Naomi. We had these white dolls. We didn't have anything that looked like us to love on it. And then as you see it, it's like my no, I love my I love my full lips. And they be trying to say we got them monkey lips. So if you look at the folks who got them thin lips, who do they really look like? Like, stop playing. Why would y'all trying to get these fillers? Like, right, right, right. Everyone wants to get a BBL and fillers and weaves. Like, listen, you love it, I'm happy for you. Right. But they want us to not, like, you're stiff, you're dark, you're dirty, but they don't want to, they don't want to love us ourselves. Right. That's not happening. That's not that's not gonna happen. I love my coils, I love my forward, my nose, my fore, like it all makes me need, and I love me. So good luck. Good luck. Take me more because you can't bring me down. So now you want to try even harder. It is wild. It is wild. I always tell them I was like, go get go speak to somebody. You should speak to someone about your animosity. That's not healthy, and they're just like they don't they get stuck on stupid. Like, discuss that with somebody, talk to somebody about that, a life coach of that, somebody. They're like, I just insulted this woman and she told me to go get help. Okay, okay. Because part of I don't know if it's a lot of us, but the majority of us, we want to see everybody win. We do. I think as a whole, everyone, yeah. We're not here to negate you. We don't all we can all eat. Because guess what? I tell people Beyonce ain't got nothing on me. Because Beyonce is Beyonce and I'm me. I can't be her, but she can't be me. Because I do you. That's it. Right. But people want to tear people down, they don't want to give their flower. Why not? We're all amazing people. Every one last one of us. I just just revel in your revel in what makes you you, and you won't have time to put anyone else down. And that really, and unfortunately, that's a basis for everything interpersonal relationships, um, um, business, uh politics. Well, politics and what's going on with that, but it's that's a whole hot mess. Someone get me a match. It just needs to burn. Um Lisa, with your psychology background, help us out. What is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Um so I just I did my bachelor's of psychology at Brooklyn College, and I wanted to get into clinical, but I have three kids, and it took me many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years to even just complete that. Well, I did a dual degree, so I have um the BS in psychology and then a BA in health and nutrition sciences. And I wanted to get into clinical and do um leaning towards like family therapy, but money was tight and I couldn't really afford to do the masters, and then when the pandemic hit, it was more like, okay, let's just stay alive. So I looked into a lot of the online programs, but it's just my girls, my oldest is graduating this year, so she's gonna be going off to college. So I'm like, I gotta worry about how to pay for her college. So maybe later I can go back to me, but for now it's more like I'm gonna focus on them. But I would like to get into the clinical side of it. Because I love I love that. I love learning about how the brain works and and how we work as people, but I like helping people where I can. I think that acts of service is is more needed in our world, in our c in our country, especially, you know, and how how we can serve each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

So I think that's one day and I feel like you have a unique like in because of how you were outwardly perceived. Outright sitting up next to each other, people's ears would open for you more so than initially for someone who looked like me. So I'm so grateful that you're in the field because you're doing the work and then others will be more inclined to hear you and do the work as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

Yeah. And I noticed when you were saying about like the fragility, I noticed that a lot. Like, um, especially during the height of the Black Lives Movement, um when many of the TV shows were doing stories on it, and I can't tell you how many times I would hear people just complain, like, I don't want politics shoved down my throat. And I'm like, but don't you understand that this is what people are dealing with? Like, this is this is their life. This is this is not just for our entertainment. Yes, it's turning into entertainment as a way of telling the story, but this is real life. Like, maybe it's not your life, maybe it's not my life, but it's not like we're pushing the narrative so that you have to sit there and shut up about it. But maybe if you don't want to hear it, it's saying more about you than about what's on the show. And it got to the point where I was like, okay, I have to remove myself from certain people because I'm like, why don't why don't I have an issue? Like, I don't understand like why so many people have an issue watching this and I don't. Am I doing something wrong? Is it me? Like, is it too much? And I'm like, no, it's not me. It's not too much. It's it's not enough until this change. Until it changes, right? Until there's no need to bring it up anymore. But it it's it really is when I started to notice how much more people were getting angry the more they were bothered by it, the more they were threatened by it. And so that's when I really started to like catch on for myself. Because before that, I'll be honest, like, yeah, I don't have an issue with anybody. Like, I always joke with Agnes, like, if I hate you, it's for the right reason. It's not gonna have anything to do with anything else, but because I don't like you because of something that you did or you are, not because of something you can't control. But I guess I didn't realize just how much of a struggle, like, and and how um I'm sorry, I'm trying to think of like the right way to phrase it. Like how I guess how much overt racism was out in the world because I don't firsthand experience it the same way. And so then seeing the news and hearing the stories, and it was really eye-opening for me on a more personal level that I wasn't able to experience before. I mean, has my husband been stopped and frisked? Yes. But it was like, you know, when you live in New York, it happens. So it was kind of like, all right, we just brush it under the rug. But to then to see so many more instances and not just the instances, but then compounded with the whole, well, they shouldn't have been resisting. Well, they shouldn't have done this, well, they sh no stop. Why do we make excuses like I don't care if they murdered a family? We've have something in this country called due process. Now I don't advocate for murder. But that doesn't mean that when they go to be arrested, they get shot and it's okay. Or and and we know that most of the situations were not even like that. It was w you know way worse. So it was for me, it was it was much more like in that space when I started to kind of even check my own self and my own privilege. Like, wait a minute, like holy shit. Like I didn't even realize like how bad it was for so many people until that started happening. And then it was like, okay. So I I I just got like more interested in learning and and history and things like that for myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

And thank you for that. Because a lot of people won't even, or they'll start to feel away that, oh, I should have known. How am I just down? And then they'll shut it down and then they'll triple down and double down.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:22

Like But it's easy to shut down, huh? It's easy to shut down. It it really is. It's easy to turn away and to change a channel and to not question, like, oh, like look at look at me walking through this world with all this privilege. And I can continue. I can walk down this street instead of that street. I mean, it really is the easier choice, but we can't we can't always make the easy choice because the easy choice now may be the hard choice later. So and and and look at where we're at, because too many people choose the easy choice.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:00

Right, but people choose the easy choice. This ain't a hard choice for them. This is their benefit. Right. That it's it's a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

That's the point.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:11

I wish there were more people out there like you. If like you don't see, but then you do, and then you call people out on it, you make changes. Like, even if you don't know, that's okay. Everybody doesn't have that experience. So you learn. And since I was in my undergrad, and I don't know if it was the culture I was raised in or what, but we would say it's retarded. Like, that's retarded. Like that gets so retarded. And I had a classmate come up to me and was really kind, and she was like, Hey, and she told me what that meant to her, and that she had a family member who was retarded, and and up, I'm not gonna lie, because I'm like, okay, I hear you. At first I was like, okay, I mean, but what's that guy to do? I mean, just I mean. So I thought about it. I simmered on it that night, and I was like, okay, I put myself in their shoes outside of me, even though I'm not gonna say, well, I didn't mean anything, but I'm not gonna do none of that. Let me see how come this impacted you the way it did, from what you said and on a larger scale. And then I was like, okay, what if I put my name there? It's like, what you mean? What are you trying to say by that? I say, right? It's like, what you mean? So that's when that changed instantly, like that next day it was done. And if I hear it, even in my session, I'll challenge it. And I was like, ooh, what do you mean? That do you mean that in the positive? Because it sounds like it's coming from a negative light. And if you were to interchange that with your name, how would you feel about it? And I'd be like, Yeah, yeah, okay. I I see what you mean now. I see what you mean. So even if you don't know, you take that in, it's a learning experience. It's like, okay, I mean, I didn't, I honestly didn't know, but now when you know better, you do better. For most, you learn better, you do better.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:47

That's exactly what I say.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:48

Call it out and take that and move it forward, you know, pass it on without and there's no shame in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:55

Like, you know, it's like, oh, but we always used to, okay. Well, you know what? People always used to smoke when pregnant.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

True, and in these restaurants and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:04

We don't do that anymore. Like, it's okay to learn and do better. It's okay to say, oh, yeah, that was bad, and and we don't do that anymore. Yeah, we used to get our ass beat.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

We don't do that. We don't see that no more. I don't be beating our children with black until they black and blue. We don't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

Sometimes some of them need to be beat, but no. I mean, this I mean, you know, we have to see like how to get started and all of the things, and they can maybe learn because some people we're gonna do but big picture, yeah. We absolutely are changing and doing better. It some things can go back, like I kind of miss my cassette tapes, but that's besides the point. Um actually kind of worked. I kind of like that, but uh Yeah, until the the film got all I mean, but if I hit a desk spot, I don't have to worry about it not working anymore. You know, yeah. Y'all cracked me up. There was an episode that I listened to. It was about like uh, what was it? Somebody called their husband. It's like ethical non-monogamy or something. Okay, that's this but this ringing a bell. And somebody like they called their husband or their partner on the phone on Twitter and was like, would you be bothered if I went to like get a coffee with a male coworker or something like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:29

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:29

You all recall what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

No. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:33

Oh that was, but yeah, when he was like, Wasn't it me?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

Did I call my husband?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:39

But he was like, that wouldn't bother me. Like, you're like, that's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure that I'm not someone. But something like, yeah, my husband would not go back, and I would not like that. Like, why would you need and not invite me? Why?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:51

That sounds like me.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

I'm gonna be down. No. Um take. I feel I don't know. To be fair, I have um so I totally get the whole memory thing because my cognitive function is not where it used to be um for health reasons. So I Lisa will be like, um, I'm gonna tell you the spoiler. I'm like, I'm not gonna remember it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:18

Go ahead. Fine. I'm still I'm I'm impressed every day when she remembers me. Who? Who are you? Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

Well, you're the last ones in my call list, so you know, it's there. Oh, November of 23, 2023.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:33

Oh so it wasn't a spotlight.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:36

It was was it with Brit? It was must with November 23. Yeah, it was November 5th.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:41

No, so what so what it wouldn't have been Brittany.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

Oh, so was it oh, was it lost?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:47

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Okay, we're gonna have to go back and look at that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:50

No, I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

Like, did I where's my albatross? I don't know what my phone is. Oh I'm like, yeah, I gotta go back. We're just having those open conversations. It's like, yeah, we do that a lot when we're gonna have a we do that a lot. Yeah. Oh, that's what like there was no rules for us.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:10

Yeah, and my husband is pretty easygoing. So but and I think if if and I'll say this if it was me and that conversation didn't go well, it wouldn't have been in the episode. I heard that I'll say that too.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:25

That was a wrong answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:27

That was a wrong answer, edit.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:30

Yeah, and then somehow I was like, I think he's like, is it gonna be on the air? So I'm just like, no, but it was. I love that. I'm all about authenticity. So when I'm thinking, I'm like, yes, I agree, because what does that say? That sounds like an insecurity to me if I'm being honest, because if we're going out just to have a coffee and I'm not doing that since you don't believe me? If you don't if we don't have trust, what do we have? Yeah, what do we have?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:54

I think that even in that sense if if it was me and I would say, Oh, I'm gonna go out with this co-worker, I would be like, Oh, this it's so and so I would want to give him at least that level of comfort. Like, you don't have like this is who I'm going out with, this is why we're going out. Like, you don't have anything to worry about. Because I would hope that in the flip I would be offered the same benefit of the doubt. Like, not to be not to find out after the fact or like especially if it was like a premeditated type of outing.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:33

Not just wanna go, I wanna dig into this.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:36

You know what I mean? Like, if if you're leaving work and you're like, oh, and then we just you know, we walk into the train and then we stop and got a cup of coffee, like, all right, weird, but okay, because like you don't do that. But it's like if you had this all set up, it's already planned, it was and and then and I didn't hear about it until after, now we have a problem. That that's how I would feel. Like, why why didn't you tell me? Like, that feels like it was hidden from me. So then I would have an issue, but I would also have an issue if it was a man or a woman, or you went to the baseball game and it didn't tell me until afterwards. I'd be like, the fuck? Like, what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:13

So I have so many follow-up questions, boys. I see, I foresee a two to three part episode with you, honestly, at this point.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:28

I'm excited. Yeah, I just always try to put myself in the other person's position. Like, how would I feel if they did that? So I wouldn't want to do something that would make me angry.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

Right, that's why I want to dig into that. Like, how come that would make you angry? But like we don't have, you know what I mean? Like, we don't have time, we don't want to.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:44

Yeah, I think it would just be something to me. I think the easy answer is just that it would feel like you didn't tell me on because you were hiding it. And if you were hiding it, then maybe there's something that you were hiding. What what are you hiding?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:56

Role play. So if I'm going to the mall and I stop and get a pair of shoes, I gotta tell you, right? No. See? What's the difference? It's still my life. I'm still trying, I'm still doing what I'm doing. I'm not cheating. There wasn't no accident, like, oh, I need to tell you, like this girl, like she can't, like, she kissed me. I didn't get the back now. Just in case it gets back to you. But if you're doing okay, y'all had it, okay, great. And if she comes up, okay, oh, y'all take me. Because I'm not, I'm not bothered. I already know if you could take him, he's yours. Right? Like, you want to be where you want to be. Like, I don't need you, I want you. I'm going to respect you. That's the value of the relationship. If you find out from whoever, somebody feed me out and they, ooh, let me listen. I have yoga, let me let me give you a video. I would want my person to be like, okay, Ann, what's your point?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:41

Well, I guess like, so for me and him, he goes out all the time. I'm the homebody. He's at the he does the darts, he goes to the bars, he does the cigar shop. And me, I'm like, yeah, you can find me at home enjoying the electricity I paid for. Like, I'm good. I'm I'm good here. Like, Pants optional, I am good. So I know that he's out. Like, I know it's so the the out part is not what bothers me. It's if it's a new variable in there where you plan something with somebody specific. It's not like control me. I'm just saying. I don't want I'm I don't think I'm controlling. So I don't see it as that. But I just feel like if you could tell me all the time, like, and it's not even like oh I'm going out. It's oh yeah, I went out after work. Because his schedule is very um erratic. Flexible, yeah, erratic, that's the better word. Like I never know when he's finished. So I don't I'm like, just call me when you need me to pick you up at the bus. So I'll get a call or a text, like, okay, I got on the bus. So I'm like, okay, cool. And then when he gets in the car, I'm like, oh, so you went to the shop, right? Because I could smell it. And he'd be like, Yeah, I went, okay. So it's not like you have to tell me where you're going, but if I found out from somebody else, I would be bothered because then it feels like you were hiding something when you're never not like okay with discussing even afterwards, like, oh, I went here, I went there. So then I don't know, like to me, that just feels like deceit.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:28

Oh, it still sounds like control to me. Not controlling. I think those are different. You don't, I don't think you're like a controlling person. So control could be like for me, something that was controlling is I would have so much bath and body works. The lotion, the spray, the body wash, all of it. Like I could open up my own shop. But no, you can't get it. You can't touch it. My kid, you can't have it, and you can't use it. No, it's all mine.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:53

With nail polish. And to relinquish some of that control, I started gifting it to my daughter and her friend. I just get a set, I breathe through it, pick a number one through ten, all of a sudden, then you get to pick first, and then you get to pick. And that helped me relinquish that control. I'm not a controlling person, but that was the control piece that I had. Or if something has to be a certain way, or like knowing a certain thing, like my kid. They're not home by a certain time. If I call you and you don't answer, now I think you're in the back of somebody's trunk crying for me and you're about to get sex trafficked. Right. So it's like I have to relinquish that, like, nope, they're gonna be fine. Let me go cook. And then lo and behold, they come to the door. My phone, my phone died. No, why I'm here. So that's what I mean by self-like control, not controlling, like uh, but it's like, wait, there's this tea, there's something there, and that means something. If I don't have it, or what does that say about me? But that's what I'm hearing. That's all. Not that you're controlling.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:50

No, and I and I I I I see your difference, and I think that I will agree with the control part. I guess I never considered it towards him. But like I will say the same exact thing when it comes to the kids, knowing where they're at. I'm like, and I really don't say no to them. I'm like, I want you to have fun, I want you to do things, but for my peace of mind and for your safety, I just want to know who you're with and where you're at. Because I want to make sure you're okay. Mm-hmm. So maybe it is the same. Maybe it is, or not maybe not the same, but like on the same similar path.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:29

But also like, I guess like there's so many times where he's like, Oh, we're I'm gonna go do this. Like, do you wanna go? And a lot of times I do say no. I'm like, no, I'm okay, I'm just gonna stay home with the kids, like, I'm good. So he so then I guess that's another element. Like, if you invite me to things, and even though most of the times I will admit that I do say no, but then all of a sudden, like, you're not inviting me, it sounds like on purpose. So I guess it would just it it would just to me feel like why is this different? Why what makes that particular thing different than all the others?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

Right. I'm telling you, that's so listen.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:16

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe maybe I can eat that listen.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:21

Okay, good. I like it, but I do talk. I get lost. I suppose it's been gone already, but y'all don't shoot. Okay, so we're gonna wrap this up. Yes, and I really think we could have a if you want to a part two and a part three, just let me know. Whenever y'all will have me, okay? Listen, uh let us know and we'll uh we'll unblock the days for you. Okay, yeah, Lisa.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:43

All right, thank you so much for hanging out with us, for being here, for sharing, and tell everybody where they can find you.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:52

You can find me at my website, jazzedandmotivated.com. Um, and on social media, I'm still I'm getting better at posting and being consistent, y'all. But jazz and motivated, and that's how you can find and connect with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:09

And I'll put everything in the show notes also.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:11

All right. This is so much fun. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:14

Thank you. So, as always, we remind everybody to visit assassinsips.com for more on this, for more on our guests, for all the ways to find us and support the show. We remind you not to drink and drive, but to drink responsibly. And until next time, I'm Lisa. And I'm Agnes.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:29

And I'm not the same again.