SPOTLIGHT on Dr. K (Part 2)

SPEAKER_05 0:09

Hi, and welcome to this episode of Sass and Sips Spotlight. Today we have the pleasure of a returning guest. We are going to be talking with Dr. Kay McGert again. And if you are not familiar, she was the focus of our July 2025 Spotlight episode. I'm one of your hosts. I'm Lisa, and I'm sipping on a little doctored up lemonade in here.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Just a little just a little, little something something. Or maybe a lush. It's been a day. And I'm Agnes, and I'm just drinking a plain old Stella. Came, walked in the house from work. Walked into the house from work. That's what I wanted to say. Grabbed out the refrigerator and sat down and hit play.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

And thank y'all for having me back. Always a good time. And in my little cup over here, I have some Moscato. Ooh.

SPEAKER_05 1:14

So for those who maybe haven't heard the previous episode, can you introduce yourself and share your accolade so that everyone knows just who you are? Because you you've got a lot of letters, and I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

And I'm like, every time it's like, talk about you. And I'm like, so yes, I have um my doctorate in clinical sexology. I'm a social worker, um, hypnotherapist, brain spotter. Um I have a lot. I work with so many populations. But yeah, like I don't even know. What do you know? I'm better at asking than just like, are you saying it and I don't know. Oh, the pressure. That's just me.

SPEAKER_05 2:03

I think that's such a normal thing. Right. I don't know if it's maybe a female thing or or what, but we tend to just always downplay our own achievements at the risk of sounding like we're bragging, but we should be able to be proud of ourselves for our achievements without it being like, oh, look at her. Was she, you know, because it's not. It's, you know, we're allowed to be proud of ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

And you are absolutely correct. That's how it comes off with like, oh yes, oh yes. I find since you mentioned that, I find like when you do say something, they look to discredit you versus it being like, oh wow, look what you have. Like, oh yeah, it's probably not. And it's like, I'm not gonna let you tear any of that down. So I keep a lot of things just close to me. But I didn't even think about it until you said that.

SPEAKER_05 2:56

Yeah, I see it a lot. I do, I see it a lot because, yeah, especially on social media, right? Like somebody will post something they're proud of. And and I I'm like a glutton for punishment. I always go to the comments, and it's like you'll get the congratulations, but then especially if it's something more in a public nature, then there's just a slew of like insults and the teardowns. And it's like, but why? Why are we like this? Why do we do this to each other? Why can't we just shut up or say congratulations or just skip, you know, next?

SPEAKER_02 3:38

My pet peeve is, and I see this without fail, everyone, whether I know them personally or you're just the public eye, anyone who has a doctorate, you go the MD, PhD of any nature, people get angry when you call yourself doctor so-and-so. If that's but that's what they are. They went to school for a hundred billion years for this. Like they worked hard for this. They're a doctor. And I find that the people who are the most vocal are being so against it barely passed high school. Yes, I'm calling it the dumb the dumbasses are the ones that are just so against it. I think like with Jill Biden, she's not a doctor. Well, she's a doctor, she she got her doctorate, she worked for it. So, yes, she is Dr. Jill Biden.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

But that's a common theme, right? Especially with women, it's always with women. Well, yes. Always, but but anybody who has that insecurity, has that lack of academia, whatever it is, right? It's it's to make them feel better. And you know, it's it's funny because um I've been trying to do a lot of like I don't want to say historical reading this summer, but um more like sociological reading and things like that. And you just you see it over and over and over, whether it's um like gender specific, whether it's race specific, it's always just well, I'm scared that you might be better than me, and I'm so inferior, so I will do whatever it takes to tear you down, and then you can insert like whatever and whatever, but it's always about that inferiority or that lack of anything that then you feel like, okay, well, I don't want you to be better than me, so I gotta take you down a notch. Why? Why can't we celebrate each other? Why can't we all come to the table? But all right, my soapbox is gonna get it.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

I mean, that's not gonna, and I find that that's not gonna happen. It's never gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. So it's up to us to be like, no, you let me cast. I'm gonna have to like proverbally castrate you. And I'm okay with that. I get perverse pleasure in doing that. It's the it's a pastime. I enjoy immensely. Because they're not going to. So you know what? It's might as just have fun with it and make them feel less than. Feel like the person that they are. You want to downgrade me? Lit, okay. We could go tit for tat. I can get petty, and I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

That's my toxic trait. I yeah, I can match energy really well as well. And I could do it better if it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

After I'm done with them, I send them to you for help.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Right. Cinder. I feel like what y'all were talking about, it's like it's if you're not a medical doctor, especially, it's like it doesn't even. It's like if you have higher ed or something, it's like, why do y'all do that? I don't understand why people do that. And the credibility that comes with being a doctor. So I would not have listen, I would have loved to not have gone that route, not worry about dissertations and defending it. However, for people who look like me, that helps add credibility. If you look fair, if you are white or white passing, you really don't have to have much or nothing for it to automatically be credible and people listen to you. But if you have like a bachelor's or even a master's, it's kind of like, mm, they're still like, uh, but it's like, okay, well, if you're a doctor, you have to do something. And they still be trying it.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

And it's begrudging. They they do it begrudgingly. I'm like, okay, that's fine. I know me. Um, I listened to the last maybe 10 minutes of the last episode to refresh our memory. Uh-oh. Do we mean uh-oh?

SPEAKER_05 8:08

Uh-oh. Uh I remember what happened in those minutes.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

It was very enlightening. Um, it started off with well, the last few minutes started with if your husband was going out with co to have coffee with someone.

SPEAKER_05 8:25

Yeah, it ended with like control issues, is where it ended.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Well, you're it wasn't that you are not controlling. You do have control issues, but you're not controlling.

SPEAKER_05 8:34

Can can I tell you that I have not stopped thinking about that? And and and I am like, oh my gosh, she was so fucking right. Yeah, I've I've seen it a lot in in things that I I catch like me doing, and I'm like, yeah, this is one of those control things. Yeah, okay, all right, fine.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Can can we open that just a little bit?

SPEAKER_05 9:05

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

What's an example? Like, what did what did you notice?

SPEAKER_05 9:09

Like, oh, I can't think of anything specific now. Um I got one. Oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

For you, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm I bet you do. I have one for me, I have several for myself. But um, just recently, I had to do a cookie order. It was like a and we I had to watch an episode so we can record. And I said, Well, as I'm decorating the cookies, I'll watch the episode. And she was like, Well, why can't you just do it later? I said, Because later I'm going to sleep. She goes, but how are you gonna watch it and do the cookies? I said, like, I do it all the time. Like, she really wants me to not. She wanted me to sit and watch the okay. First of all, I don't ever sit and watch the television. I can't. I you know, it's so she actually wanted me to stop what I was doing and just focus on watching this episode. I'm like, Lisa, I gotta I just hung up on her. I'm sorry, Lisa.

SPEAKER_05 10:08

Yes, it's in my defense. When then when we record, I can't tell you how many times she's like, oh, well, I was doing something else, so maybe I didn't catch that. Like, this is why I want you to pay attention.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

But that's never gonna happen. I can't just sit and watch TV ever. I can't, I can't. It's fine.

SPEAKER_05 10:26

Fine. But I but I said, fine, right? What what could I do? I said fine. I didn't like it, but I let it be.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

I mean, even in that, um, I hear just a little something because it's almost like Agnes would have had to have an excuse for you anyway. And so it's like, if I missed it, well, maybe it's because I was doing this, but even if she wasn't doing anything, she may not remember every single second of every single video. Right. She did if she missed it, then what would it be? It's like I was sitting there, I was focused, remember. I don't know. Mm-hmm. Yes, there's something under there. Ooh, and I'm trying, I'm not gonna do it again this time. I'm gonna be good. I just like and I just hear it and I just go there. It's just my personality.

SPEAKER_05 11:12

No, please, please. Uh you can, yeah, because I'm okay with being called on my bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Well, probably and it also had me thinking a lot about my control issues, also. I'm like, damn. Yeah. Did she freeze on us? Uh uh, I think so. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 11:35

Oh, son of a oh wait, we heard that. My internet connection is unstable. There's no one home right now. Why is my connection unstable? All right.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

I think our whole generation is unstable, so there's that.

SPEAKER_05 11:53

Yeah. No, all I was saying is that you can call me on it. I'm I'm okay with it. Like, I'm okay being called. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah. It's more so like just noticing what I'm hearing, not like calling you out, like, ooh. And then I challenge just a little bit. But that gets me in trouble because that's who I am by nature, that people connect it to me being a therapist. And so that kind of like, what is one of the words they say, butter's mouth biscuit? Because it's like I am like this naturally because I'm neurodivergent. I go deep. I'm not a surface level person, and I'm not at work. When I'm doing like my brain, I'm not connecting no diagnosis, I'm not doing no psychosocial evil, I'm not doing all of that. I'm just having a conversation. Just like if I somebody were to be like, Katania, that seems like, and I'd be like, oh, really? Okay, let me think about it. It's like the same thing. But I love that.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

But I love that because, and Agnes can tell you, like sometimes she's like, oh my God, like not everything is a conspiracy theory or a red string. Because I'm always like, okay, but then, you know, and then what about this? And what about, and she's like, oh my God. Like, I I know that if she could pull her hair out, she'd be like, disready. But I think she's just not starting to grow back, so it's not those interactions and those questions are where we learn and where we grow. So even if it's about me or about perception, I love that because that is it's not just like um, it's not just a view into the world, but sometimes it's a view into how you see the world and how you perceive the world and why are we perceiving things in the way that we do. So it's like a window into ourselves that we hadn't thought about. Like, like in the last episode, when you're like, I hear control. And I'm like, I'm not controlling. You're like, not controlling. And I really did. Like, I really did sit with it and was like, she's right.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

I mean, to be fair, Lisa, in your defense, it didn't take you but a hot second to like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:10

Yeah, because as soon as I started to think about it, um they take long at all.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

You're like, yeah, well, yeah, that's me. Yeah, okay. A lot of people are in denial about a lot of things. And those are the people that will always push back on people for for no reason because they see something in themselves.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

It's that mirror. Um, that's not Lisa at all. Lisa's like, show me, I want that mirror. And I think that's why we're friends.

SPEAKER_05 14:40

Because I joke with you, right? Like, so I'm on the cusp. I'm not like a huge into um astrology, but I'm on the cusp of Scorpio and Sagittarius. So I like to say, you know, I pick and choose where I want to identify on the day. But one is a fire sign and what is a water sign. So I'm like, well, that's typical because I'm the only thing that could put myself out. Like, you know, like burning like the flame, and then just all right, here comes the water. I'm good. You know, and that's me. That's me.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, that's nice. I love, see, I need to find more people like that. It's just difficult. It's a lot of insecurities, and it's like how they think I'm picking them apart. Or, you know how people say, You think you better then? I'm like, You said that, not me. So that is how you see me. See me. And because of that, that's how you see me when I respond a certain way, you take it to another level because you could leave it. For me, I'd be like, Why didn't you tell me? Like if I had something on my face, why didn't you tell me? You let me walk around with this on my face. So if I'm in your presence, I'm gonna just be like, all right, as long as you know, then I'm good. Like you don't have to do nothing with it. But sometimes people don't know. And if you call it out and then they have awareness, they could either do something with it or not, but at least they have that information.

SPEAKER_05 16:26

And I'm I'm of the mindset that if I'm with you or friends with you or whatever, if I point something out or if I correct you, it it doesn't come from a place of, haha, you know, like I'm smart and I knew that, or you know, I want to make you feel stupid. It's I don't want you to continue making that mistake. I I want, I took the time because I care about you and I know that you wouldn't want to make a mistake. I know you wouldn't want to walk around with something like on your teeth or on your face. So if I'm if I'm telling you, if I'm correcting you, it I promise it comes from a place of good. You know, it doesn't come from like a jerk, you know, an asshole place.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Right. But but that's me. People have to be secure in themselves to be open to hearing feedback. No matter what.

SPEAKER_05 17:24

Yeah, and right. And I've I've learned that like not everyone deserves feedback because not everyone responds to it. So I you know, if if if I give you feedback, yeah, it's it's just it's because I feel safe enough with you and I value you enough to be like, hey, here's you know, my humble opinion, take it or leave it, but you know, by the way, you spell, you use the wrong version of there.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah, there are some things I'm a little judgy on. The grammar is a little I'm I am judgy. I can't help it. I am judgy. I'm silently judgy, and I'm vocally judgy. I just like that's not right. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

We'll all together.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

What do you call me, Lisa?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

And when you say deserve, like some people don't like deserve, how do you determine? Right? So that is something that is it plays through me because just communication itself can be traumatic. It's like, all right, everybody is on the same slight. I won't know if you're worth it until you've had the chance. So then it's like you're always putting yourself out there, or else it's like I'm going to be guarded until I know you. So then people are like, how come you're guarded? How come, you know, it's like use no right answer. Right. So it's like if I'm just my authentic self all the time and I'm okay with that, I know, like, okay, I have to prep myself. This, this could be a slap in the face, and then I'll know better. I don't want to be that jaded or be hardened. That's where I'm having like a little like, mmm. I'm like, well, say nothing and because you're the one who wanted to keep doing it. I'd be having these conversations with myself. Like that's see, that's what you get. I'm like, that's what you get.

SPEAKER_05 19:25

But at the same time, like, but I don't know I'm gonna get until I do it. Like you don't right. Some sometimes you do have to put yourself out there. And sometimes you just know by how people interact with you that they're not going to be receptive. And so I just don't bother, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I mean that existing. I generalized it. So like I could walk down the street and wave to somebody, they'll look and then turn. That sometimes like, well, you know what, I'm not. And so it's like, well, then the next person, maybe I just won't wave. And it's like, ooh, but then how is that gonna? So it's like always putting yourself to the forefront can be damaging.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

And so it's like you have to and then not doing it can also be damaging.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Right. It is a hardware down. And people are like, why are you so closed out? So I'm very empathetic to people's experiences. And it's like, just come as you are. And if I don't rock with it, I'm gonna let you know. But you don't have to change who you are. You are because I want that for myself. Like so many people just instantly just be like exiting me out because I'm blunt, but they think it's coming from root. No, that's how that's how people who are neurodivergent, we just say it. Like, if you ask me about it, I'll let you know once you dig a little deeper. All right, so it's just so much so much.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

It's like, do what? Do I have to wear a sign around my neck and say, this is who I am, and this is why I say the things I say. Right. And then they're like, it's not that deep.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

You don't have to do all that.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

But then it's like and then you flip the sign over.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

You have two signs. You have that, and then you flip it over and with just with a final finger, like, fuck you. So depending on what the mood is, you just switch the sign over. Open and closed. This is it. I'm either open or I'm gonna be closed off to you. You pick which one you're gonna get. And I don't think, like I said, there's no right answer, there's no wrong answer. It's I think, in my opinion, what the hell do I know? You go with how you feel for the moment. Right. Like you want to be open, be open. If you want to be closed off, you'd be closed off. You know, I you just go with how you feel. Because you can't go by other people all the time. Because I am now about peace. And not just about not that I don't care. It's not that I just ignore people. I'm focusing on my peace in all aspects, my spiritual, my physical, my everything. And a lot of things, I'm like, okay. So that happened. All right. All right, you learn from it, and you're just like, okay, on to the next.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Yes. Right. Could all have that level of acceptance and just don't care because you'll have people coming from all kinds of camps, like, you know, she's really bothered. She's just pretending. And it's like, no, the hell, I like go. I'm not even going. You're like, okay, if that makes you feel better, okay. Okay. If that's what you believe, then go on and believe it. However, if more people had that level of acceptance, it would be amazing. And a little bit easier. Allow people to just be. That's it. I think everyone in the

SPEAKER_02 22:26

This country. But I think everyone needs to be assigned someone to speak to once they hit a certain age. Like, okay, like you get assigned your driver's license. You get assigned a birth certificate. Here is your mental health person. Right. Yes. That would be amazing. And I and our joke, some people really need it. Like, oh and and some just good for everyone. Regardless of your mental health status or where you're at, it's good to have someone to talk to.

SPEAKER_05 22:54

And and people, people have like they put such a stigma, right, on therapy, on speaking to someone. And let me tell you, therapy is not for the weak. Therapy is it, you know, it it takes something to sit in front of, you know, a stranger and and divulge your feelings, your insecurities, your worries, like and and confront things. That is not something that weak people choose to do, you know? And so like we have to stop thinking as therapy as something that, oh, you're soft if you go to no, I promise. You go, you try.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Because you have to be ready to hear someone say that you're the problem. Until you're like, okay, I'm the problem in this, this, and this. This is me. How do I fix it? Just even admitting that is huge. Like, all right, I got issues. Where can I fix it? Where can I start mitigating or whatever the case may be? Right.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

And to go back to, I'm sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. I was gonna say to go back to what you were saying before about like how people put things on you. So when I was in college, we I already had two of my kids. So they used to attend program there. Like it was kind of like a daycare. And then they had a social worker on the premises, and she would talk with the kids. You know, she would just be there and she would do twice a week, she would do support group for the parents. And most of us just went because it was like free breakfast and we were all struggling. So, but it it became like, you know, I'm just gonna go for the bagels. And then it, you know, it got to the point where it was like, okay, I actually feel comfortable talking here. And I remember one time we were talking about um like attention or or something around there. And I said that I don't always look for attention. I'm very comfortable with flying under the radar and not being seen. I don't know if it's something because, you know, Gen X or whatever. I said, even my birthday, like I don't even put my birthday on social media. I don't make a big deal, I don't really post, you know, oh, today is my birthday. Woo-hoo! Like, I don't really care. And she's like, but what do you mean you don't care? And I said, it's not that I don't really care about my birthday, but I don't care about making it a big deal, right? Like, I'm not insulted if somebody doesn't call and wish me a happy birthday. Like my parents will remember, my husband will remember, my besties will remember. That is what means something to me. Like, if I pull if Facebook is like, hey, today is Lisa's birthday, and then people comment just because Facebook told them to, I I don't care. Like, you know what I mean? And I don't mean to say that to be like an asshole. It's just it doesn't I know that it comes from a place like of nice, right? But it's just not what I need. I don't I don't need any of that. I I need the the warm wishes from the people in my immediate circle, and that's fine, right? And she was like, Well, you don't really mean that, you just say that, but then if you like you're testing people to see if they'll remember, and I was like, No, I'm not. Like, no, like I've I've I remember literally one of the first birthdays that I was with for my well now husband. The whole day went by. I spent the day with him in his house with his mom. And when she was going to bed, she said, What the hell is the matter with you? And I was like, What? And she was like, Why didn't you tell me today was your birthday? I was like, it's not a big deal. She was like, Oh, but we would have done something. It's okay. I don't, like, I don't need it. Like, this is where I want to be, whether it's my birthday or it's not my birthday. Like, I don't and I said, promise. Like, I'm not, and not that I need to promise, but this is not who I am. I don't need to test people. If they remember, they remember. If they don't, they don't. Like my life goes on, my bills will still be paid, my kids will still have a roof over there. Like, and she really was so set, like, oh no, you only say that because it's a test. I'm just like no, but okay. I mean, yeah, it was it was very strange. Like, I'm just not Agnes can tell you, like, I don't ever make again she knows me forever.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Now, the funny thing is, um, just recently I'm able to acknowledge my birthday. But um one year I was at her house for my birthday. And I was like, I don't I don't want to talk about it. We're not gonna talk about it. She goes, Okay. But she kept trying to do like the little under-the-table stuff. We're gonna have pizza and beer because it's someone's non-birthday. You know what I mean? Because it's funny how she's like, I don't care about my birthday, but she's like, I still want to acknowledge the new care about your birthday. How many times have we gone out for your birthday? I love birthdays, but at the same time, it was a hard birthdays over several years have been hard. Please don't.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

And she's like, and she respected it, but she's like, Pizza and I didn't post anything, I didn't make a big deal. It was just us quiet, but you know, to me and her, right? It was like, okay, just let's get beats pizza and beer because it's you know, not your birthday, but somebody's birthday. But Agnes is somebody who always celebrates. So I wanted to acknowledge it, not acknowledge acknowledge it, right, for her because I know that that's what normally she likes. So I just trying to be a friend.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

I know, but that that's what I was trying to point out. It's like she's still going, like, I'm going to make sure that she knows that it's not her birthday, but it's her birthday.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

Bring a tear to my eye.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah, I mean, I mean. I know. Are we sweet? Even when we're hanging up on each other. I mean, I hear a little something in that. And I mean, I'm just gonna leave that right there. No, that's even worse.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

No, no, no, no. We need to tell us all everything about ourselves. That sounds narcissistic, doesn't it? That's not how I meant it though.

SPEAKER_05 29:23

Yeah, it's you, but might be.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Wait, y'all are so hilarious. Oh, that cracks me up. I mean, there's so many things. Listen, I'm trying to slow my brain down right now. And like, I have so many pins, and so I'm like, yes, I have that, and I'm gonna come back because also, and then also, and then wait. So don't mind me when I take a little minute. No, but like going back really quick to therapy and how people, how they see it, it's the stigma also because of how it is utilized. Like, oh my gosh, you need therapy. Like, you're crazy. There's something wrong with you is to be some you have to go to therapy. And then when we see people talking about it, you know, Olympians, you know, Serena, like all these people, it's like, oh wow. And not too long ago, I had a conversation where I'm like, I think it was here I go with maybe a conspiracy theory. Lisa, ready?

SPEAKER_05 30:25

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

I got the red string. I feel like it is like it's crafted that way. Because white folks will go to therapy.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

They will go. And I'm like, that's because it's a luxury. But if it is stigmatized, we're not gonna get help, we're not going to see how we're treated, we're not going to be able to work through just trauma on top of trauma, on top of trauma. But they get to go and talk about it and work through things and have these, all these new meanings because therapy is a luxury. And if we can see that, it's like, I can afford to go to therapy. Therapy is not cheap, and insurances minimize it and all of the things. But if people can understand that therapy is not like that and it's individualized, and not all therapists are the same. Some need to have some work themselves and they won't fit it. It's just like police officers. Some go wait for the right causes, some because they were bullied and how they want to act towards other people. It's the same thing. I want to get into your mind. I want to do this. I'm no longer, you know?

SPEAKER_02 31:33

So I'm no longer inferior. Right. I can mind I can control you or have some control over something. If I can't control my life, I can control something else.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Right. It's like that's why we're not supposed to give advice and things like that in therapy because people will take that as gospel because you're the therapist in that moment. You know what's right. I'd be like, listen, I don't know. You are the master of your life. I I don't. I'm just here to help. I hear what I hear and then I give it to you. I'm like, if I had a doctor that knew everything about everything, I wouldn't trust them. That's why they have cardiologists, that's why they have the diet. That's why they have, I don't know everything, and I'm not like afraid to admit it. Like, you know what? I don't know the answer to that, but I can go look.

SPEAKER_05 32:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

You know, and my clients don't really know if I'm for or against whatever we're talking about because it's not about me.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

I will rock it, and you will think that I live in that way. And I and I don't, I would do something totally different. But it is not my position to then put my values onto you. If this is where you're at and where you're going, and it's not against my morals and values, like I'm not gonna plot to murder somebody. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do that, but then that's got nothing to do with it. Well, you know, that's what we hear, that's what we think of each other, you know. But if they come and they're like, how can I get away with this? And what can I do? Like, I'm like, ooh, I think you may need to find yourself. I can give you some resources because I can't.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Like an attorney, like a defense attorney.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Um right? It's like it's something always connected.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Go ahead. It's easy for like what you said, it's easy for okay. I'm okay with conspiracy theories. Sometimes, like the big picture, yeah, TV shows not always conspiracy teaching, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 33:24

It's not the TV show per se, it's the themes within. But go ahead. Sorry, I I think that was a control issue. I to acknowledge, I accept.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

My toxic trait? I have to poke sometimes. I was gonna say, listen, I agree. There's a cabal somewhere, even though don't talk about cabal because I can go for days talking about the cabal that is now our government. But anyway, um and it's a very small one at that, but it's a powerful one. But anyway, it's easy to make therapy a luxury if you're in the right skin tone. And it's an it's an implied luxury. They made it so it's not attainable. It's easier to keep us down, it's easy to keep everyone less desirables in the same cycle. We're living the same trauma, and they it's easier for them to feel superior. They're like, oh, look, they're not doing anything, they're still killing each other, they still don't have fathers in the house. Let's not talk about Reagan. But um back to the conspiracy theories.

SPEAKER_05 34:36

It's not, it's not only the financial aspect of it, right? It's that myth of the stigma. Not even a myth, really, but like, you know what I mean? It's it's that per perpetual stigma that attaches, and it's like, I don't know where it started, I don't know where it will end, right? But like you said, it's like perfectly acceptable for white people to get therapy. But as soon as you're a person of color, and and I'm not, right? But I've but I've heard, I've heard people say, oh no, black people don't get therapy. Black people don't go to therapy. Why not? Both people should go to therapy.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

I think, in my opinion, I don't know, I'm just guesting. In my opinion, I think it really started with the slave trade because there wasn't, we had in there were our spiritual leaders in the tribes in Africa, um, medicine men, we had people that we talked to that we looked towards for advice. Once the slave trade, we didn't have that anymore. And we didn't have that.

SPEAKER_05 35:36

There's probably nobody trust trust.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna say. Then when you did find someone and within your with, you know, everyone was slave traded and sold and authors, like we just we didn't have that luxury, and it was a luxury. We didn't have that right, we lost that right to speak to someone. We lost our community in so many different levels. So guess what we had to do? I think as a culture, we had to just do it on our own. And I think that just built up like we've always done it on our own. And let's just once slavery was let's not talk about the emancipated population, that's also bullshit. You didn't flee this, you didn't free the slaves. But anyway, um, and it's just generation after generation, we had to do it alone. So it becomes a point where it's like this what you do, you deal with it on your own.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Right. Because we have no choice but to. It's like you know how people have a big mama they would go to, and everybody would go and talk to big mama and things like that. They even took that away because so many therapists are afraid to like speak to the same person if you know this or if you're in a family member, like you can't do that, you can't have dual relationships and you can't help this person and that person. Listen, I ain't gonna say that I do or do not do this. However, if my daughter needed to talk to me, you think I'm not gonna talk to my daughter? Do you think I'm gonna be like, okay, you need therapy because no talk to you? I'm a dope ass therapist. I will absolutely talk to my daughter and help her. So they try to pull that and even try to put it in codes of ethics and then say, well, in rural areas, you can. And so when I call the ethics board, help me understand because if you can't do it, nobody should be able to do it. It shouldn't matter where you're located. Right. That means we can, you just don't want us to then if you look in underserved populations, and this is where the financial piece comes in, they can't afford it. And then if you look at, okay, if I have state insurance, not to say all therapists do not. Right. However, more often than not, that isn't great therapy. Yes, I think. And so then it's like, whoa. So then when you come to somebody who it's like, wow, you're you c I can't afford you. And it's like that sucks. It's like I don't take insurance because they got me fucked up. Because they don't value mental health therapy. Now they got chat G, they'll just talk to Chat GPT. What? Who's having people harm themselves? And it's it's wild how they just like shit on our professions because they don't really want you. If we all healed the world and made it a better place, we wouldn't be where we at. That's a money move. They need us to not be okay, they need us to be unhealthy because they need the farm, big pharma and these, they need all of that.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

You always need a demographic that's not okay. And any empire, in any culture, any time, in any time in history, there has to be a demographic that's less than.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

And those who can't see me, who's not those who are listening to the podcast, I'm doing my little rabbit ears, air quotes. Because you can't run an empire if everyone's equal.

SPEAKER_05 38:58

Well, and especially in this country where we value money over everything else, it's always about profit over people. It's it's never about people, you know. And it's it's really, really unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Yes, I've been thinking about stuff like that, like with the internet. And I'm like, how how did y'all get access to the internet? Because I remember AOL, dial up, and all that. Like now that we have this, because you can go to some places and you don't have access, you have to use their connection or you have to pay so much money. Who sets those prices? And does it really have to be that if it's not costing you anything? So is everybody just like worried about themselves and not the next person's just let's keep hiking up everything, even if it doesn't cost me much, because I can live this life and feel superior and better then. And then y'all have to suffer and scrounge and scrape. It's like all I'm doing is work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work to afford something. And then you have people who are just living their best life. Like Elon, I don't understand how you don't want to help people. All the money you have. I could see me like, here you go, here you go. Oh, let's right open this, but it's like you just want more, like greed. Hell, I don't understand stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Like, we don't have and I'm just I'm not so much anti. Listen, if you don't want to actively help the world, fine, that's fine. But why do you have to actively hinder hurt? Yeah. You don't have to, like you and the the rest of the 1%, you don't have to give your millions and billions away. That's fine. But you don't have to sit there and actively try to keep people down. That part of like, okay, you're going straight to hell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

I think they should help. They have they I think they should help because you didn't get that on your own.

unknown 40:56

No.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Now see if there was like taxes, right? I don't want, like, I don't, I earned, I earned this and you're taking it from me at the end. I'm looking at all that I've made. But most of these people who have all of this money, they would not be there without us. If we're not buying your product or anything. But if you're just like, let's say you're a farmer and you're you've got produce, that is all you. And then you're going to sell your product, that is all you. But if you are banking it, if your millions and billions are from everyone else, because you're hiking up costs of like gasoline when you know Doc on Well doesn't have to be there, but you're building on everybody. I just don't understand. Like, why not give back it?

SPEAKER_05 41:43

And then I love how it's like justified in the sense of like you've got these ultra millionaires, billionaires, and they're like, Yeah, well, we deserve it because we work hard. If working hard was all it took to be rich, do you know how many poor single mothers there would be?

SPEAKER_02 42:04

99% of the of the world would be millionaires at least.

SPEAKER_05 42:07

Right. If that was the case. Right. Single parents. Please. It's not just about hard work, it's about your generational wealth, it's about what you look like and who gives you a leg up. And people who don't acknowledge that it's not just hard work, there's many, many factors that go into it. It's you don't do yourself any favors by not acknowledging it. Um I was reading The Color of Law. I don't know if you've read it, but it's a it's about like redlining and many, many ways in which non-whites have discriminated. Whites have discriminated against non-whites via the law, you know, and it's over and over and over, you just see anytime it's like especially with the housing, because that's mostly what the book focused on, but it then when you look at it in that way, and then you see how people are kept in slums, in in in areas that are less desirable, because white people have been allowed to have homes. They've been allowed to build their wealth from that. And that all has you know it it factors in, right? So like if my great grandparents had a home, then that means that right, money has been passed from them to my grandparents, to my parents, and then to me. So I'm sitting pretty, right, on my 401k accounts, on my whatever. I mean, that's not my history, but you know what I mean? But like when you compare the opportunities, of course, all these CEOs are like white guys, right? Because their families have been allowed to. generate wealth off of the rest of us for many, many years. They've been allowed to start building their wealth, whereas the rest of us, people of color and women, have not been. And it's like we all deserve a seat at the table. We all deserve the equal opportunity. And we're not, we're, we're told that we are offered it, but we're not. We're not.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

I'm just slight, I'm just slightly triggered because they didn't build it. We built it for them. Right. They didn't do none of that. Right. They if they took books, we couldn't go to school. We had to be out in the fields. And if we learned how to read and was like wait you are cheating me. We could have lost our lives. They didn't build shit. They didn't even take care of their own kids. They didn't take they didn't do nothing. They stole, they kept like so that just like but they still didn't they stole they burned shit down. We could have been there too if they would have left shit alone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:24

That's all everyone wants to act like huh? No. What? Here? No. Like yes yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

I mean I know it's not in the past. It's very current. It's very in the here and now. Right.

SPEAKER_05 45:41

And and many of us different but doesn't look different. You know, even these policies have been in effect within the last hundred years. That's not that long ago. Like when we talk about stuff like this, everyone wants to act like oh that was that was in the past that was so long ago. No it really really wasn't. I mean is it the past? Yes. Factually speaking yes okay sure. But it's not we're not talking about the 1200s. We're not talking about like BC we're talking about within the last century. We're talking about people who are still alive to recount some of these atrocities. Like it is not excuse.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

They just don't want to take accountability because yesterday was the past.

SPEAKER_05 46:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

It depends on what they're talking about would the past be acceptable. Just a couple of years ago you know someone couldn't sell their home because you could tell black folks live there. But when they switch shit around then it can sell. If your relator is black or white like that all is very relevant and it's it's today and it's happening right now.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

Even if these redlining practices started 60 years ago it's still an effect. I don't want to hear about it's in the past right there's a lot of things in the past. No it's still in the past my respect for what was in the past.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Now my women the future we might up your ass some people don't even know what sundown towns are still that is another way to I'm not about to live in no town I'm not about to do that.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

I think they need to republish the green book that they they need to start putting those back in circulation because there's it's it was a little traveling book for black people. Oh where we where we could not it could and what was safe to travel to yeah yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:34

And you know what's I don't want to say funny but like ironic ironic is that as I was reading the caller of law they kept talking about how they would have these neighborhoods and it would be you know a neighborhood fill of white people and then one black family would look at a house and then right away right all the other neighbors would be on guard on edge blah blah blah they you know but then the real estate agents would cash in on their fear okay start hiring black folk to walk around the neighborhood to scare these white people into quit selling their houses they lost all this money because they were scared of black people and it's like fuck you you deserve it.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

You know what? You kind of like how dare you use us to like as a prop to lower home values.

SPEAKER_05 48:41

But at the same time you're like oh well good I'm glad you lost that money it's like either it's I know it's like infuriating and also kind of like fuck you too fuck around and find out.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

And I don't see that at all because they're just moving to somewhere else where they have the money. Did y'all did y'all cut all of them people that you eaten? Did they get profit? Did you give them all home not a dick no you use right and then discard us.

SPEAKER_05 49:08

Right. And those white folks yes they they sold their house they got the money they went to somewhere else but a lot of them did take a hit right so it's kind of like and you deserve it and you should have lost what kind of hit did they really take was it to begin with like what kind of hit did I I doubt they well I don't know the figures.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

I I doubt they sold less than what they bought it for. Because I'm pretty sure like they didn't go they're not in the hole.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

No probably not so there's like they're winning still they're winning they're winning still yeah same word being a mockery being walked around being paid probably just a little bit like we yeah look dance monkey dance.

SPEAKER_05 49:46

Dance like it's irritating yeah yeah and at the end of the day right like even if you take the race part out of it like at the end of the day like we are all people and it and I'm not a very people but it it like hurts my heart to see people mistreated. And and it doesn't matter what the person looks like right I don't want to see people mistreated. It's it's not my mo and and I started actually I didn't get very far because it's it's actually been really tough. Um the post post traumatic slave syndrome right I got about a third of the way and I can't tell you how many times I had to put it down I was just like some of the stuff I knew but not so in depth and I got like I got emotional a few times I was like I I don't I like I don't know you have to be either really really um like sociopathic to to be able to like read that without feeling anything or just like really able to like push through your feelings because it was I I don't know like and while it's not specifically my ancestors it's like I still look at it like but but it is it's people it's the people who were on this land before like we were here you know before I was here like how do you do that to another person? How do you how do you just justify any of it?

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Like I I don't because we allowed it I could never so because we allowed it they that's how they take away a lot of their feeling and that book pissed me off so many times I was so angry at crying like oh my gosh and then it's like it's bothersome because people will still find a way they will still find something to say and well that was then or that wasn't this or that wasn't you or this isn't everybody's experience. They're just going to tear like there's some way somehow because they don't want anyone to feel sorry for us.

SPEAKER_05 52:27

Because these reparations still haven't happened but they sure can't go around like right yeah that one's a hard one it's um but there's a lot in there that explains a lot like people look at it they're like so that's why we do this or that's why and it's like yes it's all survival but y'all only y'all only count that for police officers they feared their life do you know how often they go into traumatic scenes we live it every goddamn day so how come that's not for us that we're afraid and we run or we're afraid so we're defensive we don't we don't get that right right there's a gun in my face what the hell am I supposed to be scared right I will be used to having a gun in my face as a regular old Joe on the street yeah my um so you know that there was that the shooting in New York City um at Blackstone and that office is only a few blocks away from my office and they sent this email talking about you know what to do if an active shooter comes into the office and one of the first things was like and when the cops come around let them pass make sure they can see your hands don't have anything in your hands that they may deem as a weapon and stay calm and stay alert and I'm thinking to myself like I would be in fear for my life I don't I don't know how I would stay calm like how could you stay calm? I mean I saw my husband actually works in the Blackstone building he wasn't there that day but like I saw pictures from inside and he's just like oh my God look at how they and I'm like of course like they're panicking for their life like you don't you're not thinking you're reacting and so I've done active shooter drills like when I worked in the schools and it's scary as hell. I don't know how anybody can be calm when they think that their life is on the line and it's really unfortunate that some people don't get the benefit of the doubt simply because of what they look like. That's shameful. I mean it's shameful because I don't know like I've never had a gun pointed at me but I I I'd be peeing my pants and like crying I I don't even know what I would do.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

But calm is not one of it calm is not one of the things unless you unless I can see myself being calm if I just shut down.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

And it's not that I'm being calm it's more just like your body's just shutting down yeah it's your response by freeze appease freeze right a few years ago uh I was driving my mom's car and it started smoking and I was like oh my god I don't I don't know what's going on I was on a main road I was heading to pick up my daughter it was you know the evening it was dark it was winter and all I see is just smoke a lot of smoke and I'm like I need to get off of this road I need to get the fuck out of this car because years and years ago I was in a car that was on fire. So it triggered that you don't remember I I do remember but like I was go I'm recounting all your experiences I'm like damn girl yeah so in my head it's it's just smoke get get out get out get out get out so I am on this tiny street and everywhere is like you know right turn on red except apparently for this and I was like I don't care like my car is smoking I don't know if it's on fire I took that turn which apparently was not allowed at that light and whoop whoop a cop comes right behind me there was a parking lot I pulled in because all I wanted to do was get out of my car. That's all I wanted to do I pull the car in I shut it off and I get out the cops are right behind me. He was standing he opened his door he's like get back in the car and I'm like the car is smoking and he's continuing to yell at me get back in the car and I was like no and I and I remember even telling Agnes like he must have thought I was like some crazy hopped up on drugs person because who sweatpants like I just came out of the house to pick up my kid jumping out of a car and then finally when he realized like my hands were up you know and then he must have seen the smoke I mean the smoke was even in the car. But I remember thinking like I have never been so scared and and not just because of the car but like the cops were yelling at me and it was like creating this scene and if I didn't look the way I did would that situation have ended differently I mean thankfully the car wasn't on fire. It was you know it was okay. I kind of wish that it was kind of a little bit more on fire. It probably would have I mean once you real like realized you could see the smoke I mean it wasn't but they were behind me so I guess they were just focused on what I was doing thinking who's this crazy person jumping out of the car making illegal like I I don't know I don't know but I was I was so scared I was I was shaking I was shaking to the point that I couldn't even dial my phone to call my husband like to call anybody because somebody else had to go go get my daughter somebody had to call a tow truck I couldn't even dial like I was shaking and I just remember like I I don't think I've ever felt that scared and and I look like me and I know that that's a privilege like I'm I'm very aware that if I didn't like if it was my husband would I you know we might be telling a very different story if it was it's it's just so fucked up like it it just it just really both bothers me because it does and there's just honestly there's just no reason for any of it except for bullshit I'm sorry I'm do away with guns but they won't do that.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

And in Anglais they could do that.

SPEAKER_05 59:14

In England and in Canada don't they don't they not really use weapons and their their crime rates are not so bad. I mean they definitely don't have mass shootings.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Well there's a lot well no they don't there's also a lot of first world countries that the the my brain is shutting down I'm so sorry my brain is gone um the justice system is about rehabilitation and not punishment for example like drug minor drug offenses they get you help they don't put you in jail so there's a lot of these countries where the crime is low because the work is being done on the root level on the grassroot level and first of and then the the cops have to go to school for two three four years. That's one that's that's supposed to hear what prisons are for profit. Prisons are for profit and they're not about rehabilitation it's just about punishment and then you treat anyone like an animal they're gonna start acting like an animal um so our country's all fucked in so many different ways that being said anyone who said then move no I mean eventually I don't know if I don't feel safe I think I might but at the same time if your house is on fire do you not try to get the fire you don't call that's like say oh my house on fire I'm not gonna call the fire department. Right I'm gonna move I'm just gonna I'm just gonna move no leave the house burn if your house is on fire you want someone to put it out you know what I mean um and at the same time if it keeps getting set on fire eventually you're like okay I just need to back to that right that keeps it set on fire. That's a difference you know being like fuck it I I don't feel safe anymore I'm going to leave but if something can be fixed you kind of want to try to fix it. But that's it it can be fixed.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

It cannot unless everybody because no matter where we go we face it that's another thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

Well where are we gonna go?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

Go where am I gonna go y'all fix y'all then we will be fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

Right because where the I actually what they go where the fuck am I gonna go? Where? Because all you motherfuckers got issues but that's a different story.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

Right. And y'all don't want to acknowledge it because y'all fear of losing your power look at the there's so much corruption and it irritates it irritates my soul like if you want to be a Trump supporter be a Trump supporter but don't be a blind one because if you're telling me that it's okay for him to say all of these things and do all of these things but hold the next person accountable that's where I have a problem like you're just like if you like politics great good for you but how he was treating women and the things that he said and all of his remarks and it showing who he is as a person evading all of these charges because you don't have to like Obama he would not have gotten that far period at all. He would have been they probably would have found a way to put him in jail. So that's what bothers me it's like that's what you were like because you don't see how it is racism and that is what you are and that's what you're supporting.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:37

Own it we see it who are you trying to put right it's all it's all hypocritical it's irritating myself you know the party of family values so you vote for a guy who you know has cheated rights wives five five kids three women prostitutes sure definitely the party of family values oh I'm sorry did you mean to say the family the the party of law and order right right so it makes sense you vote for the guy who is a convicted felon who pardoned all the January 6ers who assaulted cops because clearly that's what the party of law and order does oh I'm sorry you meant fiscal responsibility right right you're the party of that oh right so that's why you just upped ICE's budget that's why you threw that stupid military parade that's why you're redoing the White House sure sure that's a good use of our money right and then and then I love the people who are like well I don't care about immigrants as long as they do it the right way. Fuck you and fuck your right way because really if you're in this country undocumented it it amounts to the same thing as like a speeding ticket okay it's not a criminal offense. And anyway if it was just about the right way you wouldn't be picking up these people in masks hiding your faces like little fucking pussies okay while they're there going to their court hearings trying to do it the right way. So please spare me the fucking bullshit spare me the mental gymnastics just say you hate black and brown people or anyone that identifies as a ooh liberal or woke you know because woke is bad and asleep is better.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

I know right because then they get to stay up like it's like how do you not see that you can also what would that be like for you if you went back to like England or whatever because this is not your home either yeah I don't do anything there now exactly so stop right I know I know it it like everybody needs dumbest timeline.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

Everyone needs everyone go see Dr.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

Km of those right but they don't stay long listen because I'm not one of the I have never been afraid to be fired. So therefore I'm gonna do like you came to see me you're not gonna put a review out or people like you you're in therapy like who's your therapist so I can stay far away no no no but you do have therapists like oh man they cancel and I'm I got this bill and I got this or they'll just sit and let you talk and talk and talk and talk and then leave and then you feel good because yes talking is good just like you do with your friend you could talk to your friend and you can cut that off my chest I feel better.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:33

What are you actually working through not a damn thing what are you fixing what are you building on where's your growth just to say they went I'm in therapy because it's it's the cool thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Right. And it's like or it's part of the manipulation I'm going to therapy so I'm doing the work and they not doing no work. So then you have buy-in and you wait and it's like all right well you're in therapy so then maybe you're right it must be me because I'm not in therapy and you're in therapy. It's all kinds of things and tricks that people do and therapists listen the ethics are not for people in the field who don't need it. It's because there are some listen if y'all knew what went on in this field I'm like what other name can I go by because this ain't it. Don't associate me with that. And how many times I hear wow you don't know you've been to therapy until you've been to therapy. I'm That's one of the best compliments. Thank you. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:29

Until you kind of feel the pain of building up. You're like, oh, I feel the difference now.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

Yeah. Or they've been to so many therapists, and then now it's like, oh, now this is what therapy is. This is what therapy is supposed to be. I'm like, wait, what were you getting? What were you getting?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:45

It makes you wonder. I get not finding the right therapist because you know, that's for human. Because we're human and different people worked. It just, you know. But how how far do you go till you realize this isn't working? Like, how many therapists are you going through? How many bad apples are out there, damn it? But you don't know what you don't know. No. You're like going to therapy. How many bad apples are there? Like, oh my God. Like, how I can't imagine having to go through you're thinking. They don't think you're getting the help. You think you're doing the work. And then it's like all for naught. Right. I I don't know. I feel and I think I I see how some people like, oh, therapy doesn't work. I can understand that mind frame because you're you're not getting the right help. Right. Exactly. It's it's very subjective. And it really depends on everybody. And that like I said, we're human and some people click, some people don't click. Different strokes with different folks, all that other fun stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:55

And that's, I think, in that sense, people may be able to notice it more than if they're in therapy and they click with the person and not receiving therapy. Like if you go to a therapist and the way they're talking to you, or if they're like belittling you, or they're like dismissing your what you're saying, or like, why did you do that and putting it on? You might, okay, this isn't a good fit for me. You may see it if you see it. If you see it. If it's over, if it's overt, it's easier.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:25

So do you have any suggestions to give someone to know? Like, like, for example, if your loved ones are like, yeah, something's not right. Like, do you listen to your loved ones? Like, what any signs that someone could look out for to know that your therapy isn't working? Like draw strokes, because I know it's really case-by-case basis.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

Right. That's the challenging part. But if you're not notice, if you're not being challenged, for one, then it may not be working. Because if you're not being challenged, then you could do exactly what you're doing outside of the therapy office and be just fine. Therapy is for change. So you have to have some kind of change. And if no one around you is noticing any change but you, that may not be a good fit because then you could be being manipulated. Or you could be like um holding your therapist feelings. Oh, I don't want them to feel bad and think it's not working. So I'm just gonna keep going, or I'm not gonna tell them because I don't like conflict or whatever the case may be. But if you go to whomever and they're not seeing any kind of change or any difference, therapy may not be working. If you're still having the same challenges, like how come with my friends or my family, or I get anxious or irritated, or this or this or that, if none of that is changing, it may be time for a new therapist. If you feel like you can't keep it 100 with your therapist, it's time for a new therapist. There's there's a lot. If they're not hearing you, if you feel like all you're doing is talking, that's not for you. If your therapist drops a whole lot of bombs about their life and everything, that's not for you either. There's um, and it's almost like don't be afraid to interview therapists. You're not gonna hurt, well, I can't speak for everybody. You wouldn't hurt moments. Some people may get hurt like, what did I do? It's about me. I'm uh it's just not a good fit. And I get that. You may find somebody who you click with because you have to have that in order to sit and bear all to someone. You have to feel comfortable. And if that is not a comfortable environment, if after a month or two you still haven't shared some things and your therapist hasn't touched on it, that may not be the therapist for you. Because if a lot of us can hear it, some have a special ear. Like I can hear stuff that you didn't even think that you thought I would be able to hear, and I can hear it and pick up on it if they're not really attuned. Because you can talk and talk, and then I'll cut you off. It's not that I don't want to hear it, but you're here for a reason. So let me give you something. Let's start to do some of the work so you can go. A lot of people will just cash in. Like you coming every week. Do you feel better? Okay, I did my job. You said you feel better, but they don't know that something is supposed to be different because talk therapy has been the thing for so long. Long people hear talk therapy. I'm just going to talk, and that's therapeutic to a certain degree. Like, we could do that every now and then, but I'm not your friend. You know, I mean, I like I love all my clients. Like my clients are dope for real, for real. And at the same time, I'm not your friend. I can't just sit in Kiki outless and like, what? What the hell? Tell me, what's the T? Tell me about it. I will do that. And at the same time, I'd be like, okay, you ready? This may sting a little bit. And they'd be like, all right, give it to me. You know, and it's like we have to keep on moving and changing. If you come to me, you know, if you come to a session with me, you're like, everything is great. I might give you one more. And then that's it. What if there's nothing we could go to maintenance sessions. I don't have to just keep on and keep on. But more often than not, I'm gonna find something. And they're like, damn, just when I thought I was better. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, we are not going to let you do that to yourself. No, right? Look at this and look at this. I'm greedy as hell. So if I hear any little thing that you might want to enhance, I'm gonna bring it to you because that's what you're here for. For and so if you're not being challenged or anything and it's just like, yeah, or if it's like, oh, I gotta go to therapy again, it's not for you. It's not for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:22

Right. So it's one of those situations I see it as I know people talk about it as in life, but not so much in therapy, that it's a continuous growth. It's a continuous thing. It's not a start and an end date. It is uh, you fix you, you're building up, you're building yourself up, you're learning, you're tearing things down, you're building things up, and then and as your life goes on, the other challenges and your personality changes and other things that happen. And so it's a continuous thing. Um, is there ever a situation where a person is gonna be like, okay, I'm good, I've reached nirvana and therapy, and I can just and I don't need you anymore. Is that is that realistic expectation?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

Well, it all depends because how good you are, right? Well, right, that too, and who you talk to. We all have different like mindsets. For me, I think you always need therapy. And then it's like, well, what does need mean? And then you have to break that down because you could be just fine. Like, I say when I say need, I'm saying it in the sense of like how it's just like maintenance, like if I need someone like unbiased, if I want to run something by somebody, that's who we are as social beings, just to have that connection and growth. Not everybody wants to continue to grow and be better. Some people are okay right where they're at. So you'll have therapists say, if um, you're in therapy with me longer than a year or two, then I'm not doing my job. And I'm like, okay, well, that's you. Separate. Because it's like, okay, you're done. And that's where people think if I'm still in therapy, there's something wrong with me. No, if you go to a massage therapist and after an hour, you go for another hour, does that mean they didn't do their job? No, it means you like it and you want to. And like they want to do more. You get a not like, uh-oh, I got stress right here. I need to go in and get this worked on. It's the same type of thing. But there are some people who will come in for one, like they have this one thing that happened, like let's say a death in the family. Then they can go to therapy. And then once they navigate and work through that, they're like, okay, good, I'm done. If you come to someone like me, we're not done because now it's like, okay, how do you? You're gonna find something else. Right. If I hear it right, it's like, okay, so tell me about everything that I wrap it up in a bow so that when you go out, you're like, okay, I know that I worked on this, this, and this. It's not, I went to therapy for this, so how come it keeps happening? I haven't had that in my let me knock on some shit. But I haven't had that happen, right? Where somebody is like, I left and I came back, and it's like, no, okay, this, and they see it in all their avenues, like at work and at home. And I'm noticing it here and here. And so-and-so has told me, and then this person has told me, and I didn't realize, and now they're changing. And I'm like, yeah, because when you change, those around you change. People change because you're not the same person and they still interact with you the same. So if everybody around you is the same, I'm not doing my job because how come we still in this space that you no longer fit? There's a lot to go with it. So it just all depends on who you talk to. And it's like, all right, you came for this, great. And then some people don't have the skill to hear it. Some people feel bad, like, oh, if I tell you that there's something wrong with you, you're gonna feel this. Like therapists, again, we're human, we're all not perfect. We may not want to do things. Certain therapists came and work with other therapists. They're intimidated, they have that imposter syndrome. So it's uh there's a lot. And it's like, ooh, there's some work there. I mean, I can help you if you want. We could talk about that. What's that about?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:56

I am glad you brought up imposter syndrome because I feel like that is something that is pretty much across the board, everyone at some level has felt in their life. They felt it different intensities. Um, some of us feel it a little bit more than others. Um I forgot my question, I was gonna ask you about it. It may come soon. It may, because my brain, I'm telling you, I'm just having a bad mental day. You're gonna forgive me. Umposter syndrome. Is that something that can become detrimental to a person? And if so, what do we do? When do we know that it's a problem? I kind of have an idea, but I want a professional's idea. I want a professional's answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:41

You know what? You may not, some people may not ever know. Just like think about someone who's narcissistic. People around them can see it. Hold on. They're not gonna see it. They're not gonna see it unless they want to. They're not gonna see it unless they are also able to reflect or take it in because you don't know what you don't know. So if it doesn't bother me, like some people, it's like I'd be challenging folks on this too. It's like, oh, I mean, it's fine, it's not bothering me. And I'm like, it sounds like you're settling. What's that about? Just because it's not bothering you doesn't mean you deserve it. And so in therapy, in the therapeutic setting, a therapist could be like uncomfortable, but I can still do my job. So it doesn't bother me that I'm feeling this. I'll deal with it. That's my own stuff that I'm gonna leave over here. And I was like, yeah, it sounds nice that that's how you want to convince yourself. We leave ourselves over there for our client. So this isn't about me. I'm not going, there's the transference, counter-transference. We're not worried about that. But if I'm being triggered in my session, I need to note that and then go get some supervision or something. Some people won't. They'll just be like, oh, it's the session and they'll leave it. So they don't do the work on themselves, or they just won't work with other therapists, for example. I'm just not gonna have that as my clientele, and then everything is fine. Why do I need to work on it? It's not, I don't need it for survival. We have to have the want to grow and see, like, ooh, if this does not make me happy, so I feel like I'm a forever learner. I don't think I'll ever be the old dog that can't learn new tricks. Because if something's bothering me, I'm like, ooh, it's bothering me.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:17

Oh, why does that bother me? Let's let's let's find out. Let's guess, and I'll figure out what's going on here. Right. Because something's gotta give. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:26

No, I'm I'm the same way. I'm I'm definitely like a 400 question asker, but why is it this way? Why does but but what happens if, and it's like, oh my god, I'm sure people around me are like, oh my gosh, shut the fuck up for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

I would go through like we have like our own issues going on in life, and we'd use each other and we're just like dig and ask the 600 questions and play like Sherlock Holmes on this issue. And say, Well, if this happened here, but why did this happen the way this happened? And it's not because it matters per se, it's the why, it's the root. We need to understand whatever how did this transpire and can we somehow learn from it, not do it again, or do it again, or whatever the case may be. Right. I can't tell how many phone calls are we? I think every other day we have some one of us have a situation that we have to like dig and delve in.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:23

Right. That's dope that y'all do that. And sometimes just no, allow yourself grace because you may not find it. If your brain has protected you from what you're not ready for, if it was pre-verbal in utero, you may need a little more assistance to get to it. I that's yeah, that you're telling sometimes you just don't have an answer.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:43

No, yeah, right. And sometimes the questions are not even that deep, right? Sometimes it's just looking into a store and being like, hi, can I ask you about what paint to use? And mind you, my husband is like, oh my goodness, we're just gonna grab this paint. Like, let's Google. I'm like, no, I want to ask four different people and see what four different people say. I I want to know four different opinions. Like, we are here. Let's no, I don't want I do. Go you walk that way. I'll go ask.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:11

I'd be so funny. And I and they actually need someone to just hit them in the middle. Like, you want to ask zero, you want to ask four. Can we just ask two, maybe?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:19

Yeah, let me tell you, I I have a little project to do on the pool, and I I have Googled, I have asked different like people in the pool store. And then I went into one of the big box stores, and I'm like, hi, so I have to do this project. What do you recommend? And I didn't say anything, I didn't say what the other and the guy was like, oh, this is what you do. Use this, use a mixture of this and this to clean, get you a wire brush, blah, blah, blah. Like, okay, cool, thank you. And I'm like, so basically what he said was very, very similar to what the other guy said. So I'm like, okay, I'm onto something. Like now I feel like I got the right answer, right? Because you ask people who know more than you. I was always taught as a little girl, like, it's okay to not be the smartest person in the room. That's how you learn.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:05

And that's how you become the smartest, the smartest person in the room by asking and learning. Not necessarily the smart, but you ask and you learn and you grow and you ask the smartest person in the room. So you could, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:17

I am perfectly happy being the dumbest one in the room because then I know I'm in good hands, right? Like if everyone is smarter than me, right? Then I'm good. I'm good. That's a good place to be. And I'm, I mean, I'm not stupid, but like I'm okay with not being the smartest one in the room. That's I like that place. I like learning from others, from their experience and being able to ask questions and actually either getting an answer or having a conversation about it. I feel like that's the best way to get to know somebody else or to have a conversation or to just gain knowledge about something you didn't know before.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:57

And there could be a block there. So how y'all like dig and dig and dig to try to find the core, and it's like, okay, if this is how far we've got, then this is it. Or if there's nowhere else to go and you feel like there's more, try EMDR. You will be surprised because I have I hear so much that I'm like, ooh.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:16

Speaking of which, you actually, before we went off on a tangent about 40 minutes ago, you had said that you're like, oh, I got something, I hear something. Oh birthday.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:26

Ah, yeah. Uh-huh. So while yes, and this is the challenging part when I challenge people just a little bit because where it may seem like I am bringing something to the surface, or it's like I was just fine, and then here comes Katana talking all of this nonsense. Because I hear that it could possibly be something, and you won't know that it is doing anything because it is not to your forefront. So that's why I get like some people are like, Tanya, why did you even? But when you want to know. So with the birthday, I'm assuming that something has happened in your childhood, whether you may remember, whether it's like you remember or not, is how come you feel the way you feel about your own personal birthday.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:09

Well, me? I share a birthday with Thanksgiving. So it it tends to get overlooked a lot. There you go.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:17

See, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:18

Yeah, no, I I I mean that's where that's where the hurt comes from. But like now it's it's I'm fine because I've done everything. It's like if you have a spray, like something on your arm, you're like, okay, you know what, I've dealt with it. I've figured like there's nothing else I can do. I'm just going to make the best. Just like racist. I can't, I can't do shit about it. So I'm gonna make the best of it. But if I if deep down, like there's something there of how come I am a certain way. And so with your birthday, like, yes, absolutely. You may be like, I don't, that's just me. Like, I don't not realizing that there is a hurt part that is there which is causing you to be the way that you are about your birthday. And I'm assuming if you were able to heal, even if you want to, because you may not want to, then you'll feel differently about your birthday.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:05

Well, it's it's yes and it's no, right? So the hurt part, it's not so much hurt, it's more like disappointment because there have been a few times where I'm like, and I I've never like it's never been like a big thing for me to do birthday stuff, like in general, right? But then there have been a few times where I'm like, oh, I want to do something, I want to plan something. And then because it always falls around that time, people tend to have plans with their family or money's tight because it's like so close to Christmas. So there's there's always been a lot of stuff that's like an obstacle for me to do something that costs something, right? And so eventually it's just like it that that was just an extension of are you raising your hands?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:04

Because I just don't want to cut anyone off. I do want to do something. When you're finished.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:10

But yeah, so it's it just became more of a like, I'm not even gonna bother anymore. Like, I'm okay celebrating intimately, right? Like with my kids. Like, I'm I'm happy if I don't have to cook dinner on my birthday. Like at this point, you know what I mean? Like, we could go out to dinner, we can order food, we can do something low-key, it's fine. It's just I I no longer the disappointment comes where I no longer try to go out. I no longer try to be the one to plan stuff because that is the part that I'm tired of. I'm tired of hearing people can't come because of other things. And it's not a dig on other people. It is what it is. Like people have lives, people have responsibilities, and I get that. It's just me that that part of it, like trying to plan something, yes, I have experienced hurt in that sense. But other than that, like I never, I don't think I've ever really made a big deal about my birthday.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:07

Because what were you gonna say? I uh I never heard, I never noticed it until you started talking before. But why do you have to validate your disappointment by starting off with, I don't mind doing anything, and I never do anything for my birthday, and I'm okay with that. Why do you feel like you have to validate this you don't have to answer it, but something to think about? You have to validate your disappointment with saying, but I'm okay with not doing it.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:36

You don't have to like Well, I guess I don't want it to sound sad. Because like I I think that if somebody else said that, I might think it was sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:46

Because you would tell me your feelings are your feelings. That's what you would tell me. You would tell me you don't have to validate your feelings. You're right.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:57

You know, like here's the thing, right? Okay, so Thanksgiving is not always on the same day every year. So I I get a reprieve, right? Here and there, like every so many years it falls. And then the times that it falls, everyone's gathered, and we are here celebrating Thanksgiving. We are not celebrating Lisa's birthday. So yeah, they might get a cake later, and oh, it's your birthday today, and I get a lot of that. I've just I've just never been the one to make a big deal about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:30

Yes, that's because of what's happened in your past. Yeah, it's a bit started somewhere. Had and I'm gonna pull something for you. Had it been made a priority, not I don't know if your family has, I'm just gonna say it in this way. Had it been made a priority and you felt the difference between your birthday and Thanksgiving, I think you would respond differently than because this is what it is, it's the holiday, I get pushed to the side, or it's not as, or it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, later it's dismissed. I've learned to dismiss it myself. But had your parents made it to where your birthday was higher than Thanksgiving, I think you would feel differently about your birthday today.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:15

Yeah. I I mean, I don't want to say like my parents never celebrated me or you know, or my sister. But Especially as I got older and came into adulthood. It you know, it's not the same as when you're a kid. And then, you know, it's like breakfast and there's gifts and and there's like, you know, a little cupcake with a candle before school or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

So you celebrate your birthday from all the way through. How was your birthday celebrated over the years?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:49

Well, when I was a kid, there were like little parties in the house. Um we would go out to dinner, we would have like family over. It it was always like a family thing. It was never really like um, like I never had like a McDonald's birthday party or anything like that. But as what made you qualify it? Say that again.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:15

What made you qualify it? What does McDonald's birthday mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:29:18

I don't know. Like some kids had like a birthday party with their friends, like in places, but we we I don't think we could afford that. So like we never had that. It was everything was always very family focused. So yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:31

I want to pause you, and I'm gonna pause you just because if you don't want to go into the more details, but I just wanted to point out how when you say like it doesn't have to be money, it's just a close family, and then how you're connecting your childhood. We didn't have a lot of money, it was just like like that's what I'm talking about where the seeds go. And so if you want to open, because I don't know if because sometimes I'll be forgetting that we're recording, and I'm like, I don't know how much business you want to put out there, but if you want to go, I am all for it because I love it, and that's what I do. And I'm like, I can hear the connections already.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:01

Yeah, I mean, we were we were okay as kids, like we always ate. We had a roof over our head, but we didn't like we we didn't have like vacation money, you know, it wasn't like that. So anything that was extra was extra. Um, so like my my parents split. I was like eight, and we we lived with my dad. My dad was very like focused on me and my sister. He was always for the most part the primary parent just because my mother just didn't have the the way she worked, she had to work two jobs in basically in order to survive. So she she didn't have the time for us the way my father did. Um so the situation was just better for us to stay with my father because he stayed in the apartment. So then my mother moved out. She moved to a different borough. She, you know, so instead of us moving with her, changing schools, all of that, we just stayed. Um so it was it was very, it was always family around. It was always very family-focused life. I mean, you know, in Puerto Rican and Italian, it's like that that's that's life, you know, family. But um, and then like growing up in Brooklyn in like that neighborhood, even your neighbors were pretty much your family, and your family didn't live far, like they all lived within walking distance. So um, but yeah, it was just like more so as I got older that they I guess it was like when I was younger, it was more kind of like coddling, even though that's probably not a good word, but like, you know how like you dote on kids more? You know, like you make things like really extra. It doesn't it doesn't matter what it is, right? Like it's just it's everything is just always like a bigger deal. And then as I got older, things just weren't a bigger deal. And it's it never really bothered me. It just was the way it was. So I got used to it. Like when it was Thanksgiving, it was just Thanksgiving. Yeah, we'll probably get a cake later. They'll sing happy birthday. I might get gifts, but it wasn't it wasn't the reason that people gathered. So it just stuck with me. I don't know, like, and I I feel like I'm singing like a sad story, and I don't mean it to sound that way. Like it just I'll qualify on your feelings, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:36

And if it sounds like that to you, maybe because it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:40

But I I've I really don't think it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:45

I mean, and this is where, if this were a therapy session, this is where the challenges become. Some people think that I'm coming for their family, their parents, or whatever, but I'm like, it is what it is. So they'll qualify and like just like how you're saying my mom worked two jobs, like you wanted to give us like the background as to how come I was with my dad, not my mom, because there's so many things with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:06

I know, right, because it was it was weird, right? The single parent is dead. I said it was right.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:11

I said you're qualifying, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:33:12

And so I'm like, I think it wasn't because like my mother was you know, anything bad, it was just the better situation that they worked out, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:23

And even still, because some people be like, I don't care as a mom that your kids, you make it work, like all kinds of stuff can still come from it. So I'm just picking up on that. But when in when I'm talking with people, it oftentimes feels like I'm coming for their family because I'll say you're you were failed essentially. No, but like if your parents were doing the best that they could, listen, if we could all afford everything, I've told my kids that I have failed them. They're like, well, they will fight me on it. I'm like, because if I could, if I had, and I wish, there are so many things, and that is okay. And at the same time, just because you ride for your mama does not mean you have to dismiss your feelings and what that was like for you. Because that is equally valid. If I make it about me, that's an issue because your feelings are your feelings, even hearing it. And I think the more, and this is where it gets kind of challenging because, like, see, I was doing just fine until you open this shit up. That's what they tell me. Because it's like when you think about it, you've said it more than once. I don't want this, it comes off as sad. I don't want it to come off as who are you trying to protect? Because we could feel sad. If we hear, we may be like, we may not feel sad, or we may feel sad. But that I think that's also for you to also continue to tell yourself the message that it's not, and I'm fine, and this is how we grew up. Like the Latin, like this is how we were. These were your neighbors, these were your like that's that's what it was, and I'm okay because I don't want to sound ungrateful. I don't want to make right, right. I don't want to sound ungrateful. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:55

And the sad, well, I would say the times that I have been sad would be the times that I did try to plan stuff and then it didn't work out because of situ. So, yes, on those occasions, but then it's kind of like, well, I guess I don't try anymore because I don't want that disappointment. And I know that I'm I'm a homebody, I'm I'm you're minimizing.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:23

So if you wanted a home birthday, that's fine. Everybody can come to your house. Well, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:29

But I'm just saying, so like for me, I don't need to go out on any day of the year, my birthday or not. So I stopped planning because I don't want to be disappointed on that day. Right. And so you see how that just came full circle? That's what I was saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:45

But I feel like you don't want to admit that it does it is sad and disappointed because you feel like you're being disloyal to your parents. And the two are not you, you can still have your feelings and still like my parents did the best that they could and they loved me and they did celebrate me. Or even sounding like a brat. Some people like a brat, I want to be like a brat. Like I have to love your parents and know that they did everything for you. And as an adult, or whatever the case may be.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:11

But I don't have any negative memories, like as a child.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:14

Exactly. But you could still be sad that your birthday eventually wasn't about your birthday anymore. You just said it. Like you just said it multiple times.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:22

Like, so I stopped. I was disappointed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:25

Right. Oh, right. As a few, there were a few times.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:27

If it didn't stop, like it's mutually exclusive. You could have you could still, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:31

Right. Yeah, but I guess so. For me, I guess I'm um differentiating between childhood and adulthood. So like once I got into my 20s, where it's like I'm on my own, I can actually legally drink, then I'm trying to plan stuff, then I'm trying to be like started like eventually as you got older.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:47

So like the teenage years, it became a little bit less important. So it's like a gradual thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:51

Oh, but the teenage years, do you really ever want to be like home with your technically you could do something childhood?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:58

Like you let us know it started in childhood when you mentioned that y'all didn't have the money and it wasn't a McDonald's party, and then people were doing like you already stated it for us, but I don't think you want to cast negativity over it. And that's not what that means. That is like a negative experience just because we identify where something started. It's like, okay, well, if I start writing it back at five, it's kind of like that. If I said, okay, well, then let's go back to where when this started. Oh, when you were five. Okay, so that's where it was. It's the same thing. But when it happens in like a healing environment, it's like, but that means it's bad or it's negative.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:35

No, it's just giving you information on where this started not playing blame or anything, it's just that this is how it started. So you could recognize this is where it started or this is where it started without being negative.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:46

Yeah, because I guess I get torn. Like I don't want it to come off on a bad light on my parents because I know that they it's yeah, and I know your parents, and so that's what I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:58

Like some people think I come for their parents, and that is not no, and I and I know, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:38:03

I know that you're not. I just want to like anybody who's listening that I'm not editing it out too if you want to.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:10

Right, but I mean, I'm saying that for you, you I am, but I'm saying like I'm not coming for your parents, so that you don't have that defense, like, but I had good parents, so it couldn't be this.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:19

So I want to you're open to listening, you're opening to it recognize that this is what it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:24

It's not about your parents, it's yeah, but I wasn't defending them from you. I was, I guess for for me it's the the listener who might be hearing me and thinking that that's I'm not editing shit. I'm just making it clear. Okay, it is not her parents.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:40

I had good parents, right? But that we love I have good parents. That would stem from you for even caring about caring about the yeah, you're filtering it. Well, I don't want them to think that because I so it still comes internally because we think no about nothing else we share, right? That is you protecting that aspect, which is why I wanted to let you know for you that that's not what that means. Because it started then, and then it's as you got older, it's like, well, I'm not you like, oh, you know, we we made deal with it. So then as you continued on, you're like, well, I just make deal with it, and people have, and then people have, and then when I get older, people can't. So I'm like, okay, but if you have people, I'm sure like Agnes, like, sure, what are we doing? Let's plan it and we'll go. Just seeing y'all.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:21

And I actually, as I'm listening to it, because for her 30th birthday, her second 29th birthday, her husband and I planned a surprise party for her. I couldn't go at the last minute because I couldn't get out of work. Okay, someone called. It had it was a last-minute change. I couldn't get out, and I felt horrible. And as I'm listening, I was like, oh man, that was me. But it's not you. I know, I know, I know it's not me, but I'm like, I get it. It's just the situation.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:52

It's the time of the year, it's the situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:54

It's but you acknowledging that has done something to her younger parts because that's huge to make that connection. Because some part of her could have been like, well, it just happens because that's what I'm used to. Like, I I get it. I get it. And that also starts to diminish and minimize your relics. Things like that's where it comes from. Can't nobody, I mean, I don't even know y'all like that. And can't nobody tell me that y'all aren't good friends, but I would also say that that would have been a contributing factor to it. Not that your friend was a terrible friend, not that you would have demanded her be there, not that her not being there made her less of a friend. No, but it added to the stuff that's going on. It's like, yeah, I mean, it happens. I get it. Like, don't even worry about it. It's good, it's cool. I'm fine, I'm great. But like I was mentioning, like if that never happened, then even as you got older, your 20s, if people made it a point and it was like any other birthday you would think would happen in a March or May or June, it would be different. That's all I was saying.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:55

Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm gonna give you a hug. Let me know what time to pick you up from the airport. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:06

Yeah. And then when you notice that, and then you could do like EMDR can go down even further. Further. And it's like, oh wow, this is where it comes from. This is how come I don't care. Like, even if people still don't show, that doesn't mean that I have to be like, okay, it's fine. Like, no, I mean, it sucks. Like, so I'm gonna make it a point.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:24

Thanksgiving happens on whatever day. Everybody is the Saturday before Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:30

Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:31

Oh, my birthday. Yeah. I have no idea. So for the listeners who did listen to our first, our first episode with you, and shame on you guys, um, can you tell them a little bit about EMDR?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:43

Yes, that's eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And so what all it is is your eyes, like when you're sleeping, REM sleep and how you're processing dreams, like it have of what happens, it goes down into the neurocortex part of your brain. So if you have the outside of your brain, like this is a thinking part of your brain. And then underneath is like that uh mammalian part. Um, have you ever like when somebody is like, I don't know, I just got mad, like I just popped off, like it just happened. That's because it goes down. We're past the thinking part, the neurocortex, and we're down deep. EMDR gets down to here. Talk therapy, we're here. We're in our left brain, we're talking, we're making sense of it. We can put up blocks, we can, we can have blocking beliefs, we can put all kinds of protectors on. But with EMDR, it somehow can get past that and get to the core. And it works light years faster than what talk therapy can do. And so all you need is bilateral. You can walk. That's why, you know, people go outside like, I need to go for a walk and I feel better. Or when you're, you know, with your baby and you're rubbing their back, because that's bilateral. All of that is bilateral. You can do eyes, you can do sound, you can do tapping, and that's how you process because you're holding dual attention of two things. So I'll say, like, think about that thing, and now watch this, or listen to this, or tap here. So you're processing it both at the same time. And we're getting more into the right brain than the left brain. So it's like it's not talk therapy, it's brain therapy. It's up here. It's pretty dope. It is dope.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:12

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:13

It's like I'm getting all the feels. And like people are amazed because they'll be like, you know, I don't know what it is. I just don't have the word for it. Oh, that's pre-verbal. It's because that happened when you were younger and you didn't have the word for it. Words for it. That what you're feeling is connected to there. Like, um, if I were to smell Bath and Body Works, cucumber melon, it takes ages me. It takes me back to like middle school. As soon as I smell it, I can smell it and I'm right there. That's just the same as everything else, a trauma or anything. It could be a sound, it could be a sight, it could be a feeling, and it opens it up as if you're reliving it in that moment. So we go in. I have one of those. Yeah. You go in and you update that information, and then we tell our older parts. Some people just can't really until you experience it, it's kind of hard to like make the connection of how you can just update that information. But when you were younger, that's when we're starting to formulate all of our beliefs and all of the things. Something happened to us then. Let's say um when you were a child, you were harmed, and it's like, well, by your parents. I can't say it's my parents, that's my caregiver, that's my protector. If I put it on them, I am unsafe. So then I was a bad kid. I was the bad child. I should have. And then you carry that with you. You carry that with you until you get to a moment where you either realize it or EMDR opens that up when we go back and process it. And it's like, wait a minute. No, that wasn't me. I wasn't. I did not deserve. I was. So then you start living in that truth. It's like it unlocks something. You're like, you know, there's a way like I can breathe. What?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:55

Yeah. But for me, it's it's the smell of whole wheat bread, but it's a comfort thing for me. So it anytime that I smell that bread, whole wheat, I mean I buy it from the supermarket, the first thing I do is stick my face in the bag. Because as a child, when my father would walk me to school, all those the bakeries, they would all be baking their bread in the morning. So every time you would walk down the block, you would smell the bread. So it just brings me back to like being that child, like holding my dad's hand, walking to school and just safe, you know, and like a good memory. And and then also um my aunt, who was my grandmother's sister, she used to look after me after school, and she was the only one. We never had whole wheat bread at home. We always had white bread, but she always had whole wheat bread. So then it brings me back to her apartment, and it's just like the good feelings because I spent so much time with her. She taught me so many things. And so whenever I feel like, you know, whatever, it's it's it's like a pick-me-up, you know, like I don't want to seem like a, you know, like, but you know, that's worse than stuff, so it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:24

Yeah, that's the anchor.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:26

It's immediately like a calming, happy trigger for me, you know, and I I I love it. It it just brings me back to those places and it it gives me like that warm, you know, good feelings, like happy feelings.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:42

Yes. And you bring all that to the adaptive network, and that's how you can ground it. And that's the same with the hurtful memories. So how you have that good positive sensation connected with like wheat bread, whole wheat bread. Some people have a connection of um like coming home from school and I don't know, something not being right, I can't think right now. And then my value or my work, they link those together just like that. So whenever it happens, they have that link. And we have to go back and update at that information. And so what we also try to do is link what you just did to the adaptive network. We'll say think of a sound or something, a calm, peaceful place, or something that makes you feel happy or joy, and then we tap that in, and now you have that connection. So now when you think of just like a grounding exercise, when you breathe, what happens? Oh, I feel this and I feel that. That's linked. So now I know every time I do like a grounding or breathing exercise, I'm going to feel better. And so we link and we unlink. And so we have to go up, update the information and link that where it needs to be linked or unlink things. And then that's how it's like a chain that's then broken. It's like some people like, I feel so silly, I feel stupid. Like, how did I not know? Because you updated, it wasn't updated, right? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:57

Allow yourself grace. Good stuff. I feel I feel like I just came from therapy. Like, I feel so good right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:04

We're gonna have to like at least like I don't know, three, four times a year.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:09

We gotta test she's gonna send us a bill soon. I will not know.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:15

We will gladly pay it. Right? And it was not there. It's like when somebody talks about what they love, right? Music and everything that brings that's also another link when you hear like all of these or something, it takes you right back from dancing. It's like I'm just talking about what I love.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:31

There, there are songs that I can hear and immediately take me back to a place.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:35

There are songs I can hear in the time or what I was, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:39

And I will burst into tears. And it's like it, you know, it's definitely a strong trigger, happy, sad, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:47

But the stronger the feeling, the further back it goes.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:51

Yeah, yeah. Um before we let you go though, because I I actually have to head out soon. Um, I have to do a job for my mom. I want to ask you my silly question because we never did that. Oh, I forgot about the silly question. I don't have one prepared. All right. Oh, I don't have one prepared. I suck. So, speaking of music, what was the worst song that was ever composed?

SPEAKER_01 1:49:24

Um, the worst song that was ever composed.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:30

This is the song that yes, it goes on and my friend. Some people started singing it, and I know what it was.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:44

No, they don't gonna have that, and they'll continue singing it forever just because this is the song that everybody I need a puppet!

unknown 1:49:55

I need a puppet.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:58

Oh my god, okay, that's hilarious. Okay, I don't have a question.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:04

Okay, I wasn't expecting that one, and that was actually really funny, and now it's gonna be stuck in my head forever.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:13

Oh my god. Okay, do you have a secret talent? And if so, can you do it right now? Secret talent? I don't have much secret talent. Do you have a secret silly talent? I don't.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:32

I am so like well I see I think is funny. I don't know if it's a talent, but I'm just thinking of like me and my daughter, we do it so well. People are like, what's wrong with y'all? But like we can use, like we can have a conversation and insert like musical lyrics to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:55

That must be a mother-daughter thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:57

Because me and my mother used to be able to do that, like a whole conversation with just yeah. Yeah. I've done it with mine too. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:05

Okay. Well, and it's just stalled it's like, they're like, how are you just off the dome with it? Like, we'll come up with a whole like rap or something off like the last thing you just said, and just just wind it in there. It's pretty easy.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:19

That's that is dope. That's awesome. So we gotta get that on video. We're gonna send us the link. Send us a video of you and your daughter doing it. And we yeah, we should be so embarrassed. I think there needs to be a game show of this nature. I'm I'm gonna talk to Mark Giffin, although he's a little bit dead now, but I need to talk to somebody.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:37

Well, it'd be a captive audience.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:43

We can't go anywhere because they kinda need a Ouija board.

unknown 1:51:47

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:51

Okay. But you have to do the puppet thing.

unknown 1:52:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:04

I just remind you, baby. Wait, I take that back now that I just that is the worst song ever. Baby shark.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:14

Um grandpa.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:26

It used to be um I love you.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:30

Oh Barney. That was there. I want to shoot myself at the time.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:35

I didn't even let my kids watch Barney because of that song.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:39

Yeah. Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:43

Oh my gosh. This was this was so fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:46

It was as always, was fun, enlightening. You're like the best time ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:54

Y'all too. It's a good time. It's like I just looked at what time it is. I'm like, see, time flies when you're having fun. Oh, see? Yeah, yeah. That's why I was like, um, yeah, it's like six o'clock. Right. Thank y'all. I had a good time. I'm so glad. Patrick ever had nothing to do, nowhere to go. I'm like, I'm going to sip and just talk, open up because it's like a I feel like we could have like an honest conversation where I appreciate that. I'm assuming, but for me, it's like I'm not holding another band. I don't have to perform, I don't have to do none of that. No, just give it to us.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:29

Give it to me. I'm worth it.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:30

Okay. Um, okay, I'm good on. See, who do you think you are? You're worth it. No, I'm just kidding. Thank you. You're worth it.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:42

Thank you so much. And really quick, I just want to before we wrap it up, Lisa. I just want to tell you if anything bubbles up because I just poked in today and the last time, you can hit me up and I can help you like wrap it all together and everything, so you're not just left open and raw. Like, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:59

Okay, I know, right? Like you get emotional. I don't, I don't get emotional often, but it's when I do, I do.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:05

Kindness. It's kindness, and we're not like, I think we're not used to it. Oh that's I really do appreciate that though.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:14

Yeah, you're welcome. And I won't be saying stuff just to be saying stuff for fluff like people. Oh, I believe that.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:19

Okay, yeah, totally get that now. That is completely understood.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:26

All right, thank y'all. Thank you, Dr. Kay McGert, friend of Sassin Sips, family of Sass. She's now family now.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:37

Oh, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:38

Hey, there we go. Hey, okay, all right. Sassinsips.com for all the ways to connect with us with our guests for more information. Don't drink and drive. And until next time, I'm Lisa. And I'm Agnes. And I'm Dr. K McGird. And we are out of here.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:58

See you later.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:59

Bye. Bye.