SPOTLIGHT on The "Abortionfluencer"

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Hi, and welcome to this episode of Assassin's Sips Spotlight. I'm one of your hosts. I'm Lisa. And I'm Agnes. And today we are joined by our guest, Colleen, the abortion fluencer on socials. Did I say that right?

SPEAKER_05 0:25

You did. That's right. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

She has been a reproductive rights advocate for more than 25 years. She hopes to help educate and fight to get our rights back. She lives in Denver with her hubby Brian, and she is a healthcare writer by day. Please welcome Colleen.

SPEAKER_05 0:44

Hi everyone. Hi Agnes and Lisa. Thanks for having me.

unknown 0:47

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_05 0:50

Absolutely. It's exciting.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

What are you sipping on today?

SPEAKER_05 0:54

Yes, the the very important question. And it's very boring, but it is coffee, my drug of choice today. And my cool, it's got um like literature quotes. I don't know if you can see them. Call me Ishmael.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Ah, I love it.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

Yeah, you got yeah, I bought one for my dad, and I was like, I kind of want to keep it. And so I well, I'll just get my own. You know what's a good gift. And you're like, this is I can't this too. How about you, ladies? What are you? You're I hope it's more exciting than coffee.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

I'm sipping on red wine, and my my my glass has a quote also, but it's uh Sophia Petrillo from the Golden Girls. Oh, I love it. Sicily 1922.

SPEAKER_05 1:39

Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I started off sipping on a Long Island iced tea. I've now switched over to pre-Jesus juice, also known as water. Um, so I could finish the episode. Um Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:54

I was gonna say, man, girl, you're coming in strong there.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

I'm like, what was that? You're thinking, I'm not funny anymore.

SPEAKER_05 2:03

Yeah, I like your style. But thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_05 2:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

So before we get into the meat of the episode, one of the things that we do here is a silly question. So I'm gonna ask you my silly question.

SPEAKER_05 2:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

If someone has manipulated your memory, how would you know?

SPEAKER_05 2:25

Ooh, that's not silly. That's thought-provoking. Hmm. Um well I'm I think the first thing that popped under my mind was Memento, the movie Memento. And so I guess you you guys remember um oh what's his name? I always forget his name, but yeah, really cool movie about yeah, he just had no memory Phoenixes? No, it's no um, oh gosh, I forget his name. Shoot, he's Australian. Um, but no, it was the one where he has um he has like no long-term memory, and so he like every day he just forgets. And so um he's trying to solve this mystery. And to remind himself, he just writes himself notes, um, whatever he does remember, and he writes notes everywhere. And so I guess that would be what I do like each day, whatever I remember. I don't know. That's a tough one. Have you guys thought of that? Like an answer.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

No, no, I don't I don't hear it until she asks as our guest. I have a question. Okay, any context. Yeah. Is it like randomly my memory's been jacked up, or do is it like a daily thing that I can develop something? Like, do I wake up one day be like, wait, okay, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Picture the guys from like Independence Day and they But how would you know? Oh, same difference.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

I knew what you meant though. That's what's so weird. I knew exactly what you meant.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yes, thank you. Um I guess eventually some of the stuff that's just innate to me would pick up. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 4:04

Or maybe other people around us might say something to trigger it.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Yeah. Like, I don't know.

unknown 4:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

If I'm actually nice to someone, I'm like, oh wait, something's not right. Lisa. How would you answer that question? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

I think I would just feel like I was going crazy. Like when you have those moments where you're like, wait, I remember this being this way, and everyone around you is like, no, and you're like, no, no, no, but I know. So I think I would just silently end up going crazy.

SPEAKER_05 4:44

Okay. All right, like being gasolit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

You're all of your friends. So maybe we all have had our memories.

unknown 4:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

It's kind of like the real, like the Mandela effect. Yeah. Like, no, the Baristin' Bears was not spelled this way. No.

SPEAKER_05 5:06

Good reference. I'm still a little messed up over that one, though.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

I'm like, hmm. I don't even know about that one. I feel like I'm gonna look somewhere in my basement. I know I have a Bearstein's bear book or something.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Might be 40 plus years old. But I know there's something.

SPEAKER_05 5:25

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Do you guys mine or did we do that later on? Because usually we forget, and at the end of, oh yeah, we have a question. Okay. So this one might fall into the last one inadvertently. Okay. What is the weirdest movie you've seen?

SPEAKER_05 5:42

Oh, the weirdest. Oh gosh. I my husband and I love weird movies. So um it'll be hard to narrow it down. Oh my gosh. Um, I I mean, I I think I have that long-term memory problem. So I'm gonna go with something. Um in most recent times, like last year, it's called Poor Things, right? Poor Things. Uh, Emma Stone was was the star there. And it's sort of like a feminist Frankenstein story. Um and if you've seen it, you know what I'm talking about. But yeah, it's it's very weird, but it's an avant-garde, you know, but it's very cool. And it has Willem Dafoe, and he's always in, you know, kind of weird stuff. So yeah, go see that one. Really weird, really good. I'm gonna actually look for that and stream that one. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Yeah, me too.

unknown 6:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

I still get some with this.

SPEAKER_05 6:33

Well, you guys like you said you like kind of off-color. There's some some really cool, like explicit sexual, you know, references. So yeah, like female masturbation and um, so yeah, it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

So it's that is actually I appreciate I'm I'm a little baffled that it's coming out what did it come out last year, 2023, 2024, something around that time. It's taking that long for something to take a woman's point of view on anything for it to be out there. I mean, never mind. Right, based the way the world is, I'm not surprised that it's taking this long, honestly.

SPEAKER_05 7:12

I guess Nicole Kidman had that one this past year. Did you guys see that one? The um, which was all about that. Um, it was pretty brave.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

I mean, she's an older lady and I remember seeing the reviews about it and people talking about it.

SPEAKER_05 7:26

Something about baby uh baby girl. Baby girl. Baby girl, yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

I didn't even hear about that one.

SPEAKER_05 7:32

Oh, that tests some boundaries for sure. Yeah. But um, yeah, yeah, it's good that we're finally talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

And I think a lot of it has to do with us not being able to have the big production companies in the big studios to push a movie. Now it's a little bit more, I'm doing it myself. And it's easy to do that. You can get these movies out, you can get these shows out without Fun Day from Big Studio. Because we already know how that works.

SPEAKER_05 8:00

Yeah, kind of the DIY movement, which should be coming back these days in this era of authoritarianism. I like that. Like do-it-yourself stuff. I think it's gonna come back, like gardening and community, you know, advocacy and that kind of thing. I hope so.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

I think at this point we don't have much of a choice. And I think honestly, it's gonna take time also because people have to learn stuff that at one point we already had done for us. So it's gonna be a slow transition. And I don't think a lot of people, most likely the younger generation, don't understand. Like, oh, just do it yourself. Well, yeah, we kind of retrain our way of thinking. Exactly. Not everything is Twitter, not everything is gratification. But I'm excited, in a way, I'm excited to see what transpires with us as a society and what we do with it.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

And that's where the internet can be so handy because you've got things like TikTok and YouTube, where you run into a a stumbling point where you're like, oh no, I've I forgot how to do this. I don't know how to do this, I need some help. And you don't just have to rely on those people who are in your immediate vicinity. Your neighbor doesn't know, cool, that's okay. Some guy in Guam has a TikTok who will teach you, and it's great. So I love that about that the the future that we live in.

SPEAKER_05 9:47

Yeah, yeah. My husband are constant constantly jumping on YouTube, like, oh, well, let's just look at YouTube. We can go fix our car. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Not that ambitious, but well, I've I've I've used YouTube to help me with my car a couple of times. Yeah. So yeah, it has helped.

unknown 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Come by to you and Lisa when I have problems with my car. Because that's that's why.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Your car is like 15 years newer than mine, so we'll do it together.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Oh. Nice.

SPEAKER_05 10:15

What kind of car do you have?

SPEAKER_00 10:16

I have a uh CRV hybrid. Okay. Yeah. I am a CRVer. I like my CRV. This is like my sixth one. Oh, nice. But I like to lease because I know me and I need it to run. I need to be able to get my car and know it's gonna run. So every two years I'm like, okay, let's get a new one. I don't want to worry about first world problem. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Yeah, I'm sorry, did I say 15 years? I think your car is like 20 years older than mine. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:45

What your car was with my daughter lately.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

I have a uh 2007 CRV that I have had uh since 2012. So I've amazing. Yeah. So I've I've been with my old girl. We're in a long-term relationship. It's very good to me.

SPEAKER_05 11:04

I that's a well bit built car.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

It really is.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

I mean, that's shocking.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Oh yes. My girl has over 200,000 miles on her, and wow. We're we're a pair. We are a pair. But speaking of socials and TikTok, and that's how we met because I slid into your DMs.

SPEAKER_04 11:27

You did. It was great.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

But I love your content. And so I would love it if you could tell us more about how you came to be the abortion fluencer.

SPEAKER_05 11:37

The abortion fluencer, yeah. It sounds really like, oh, I'm the abortion, you know, like I just came up with this, but um, yeah, it actually has a funny origin story. Um, kind of funny to me. But so years ago, well, it feels like years ago, but uh, I guess that was 2020, our our nightmare years of um COVID. And, you know, we were all in our home. Yeah, the dark ages, the beginning of the dark ages. Yeah, exactly. Um we were all inside, and I had I was a teacher at the time I was uh um teaching English as a second language to adults here in Denver, and um and our school kind of shut down and they fired all the teachers, and so I found myself unemployed and um and I've been kind of like an online girl for a long time. Um, unfortunately, I have a big digital footprint, which I'm really now regretting, but um, but I've always wanted to, you know, play with the new things and um and so I was already on Instagram and um at that time I kind of like like Lisa, you slid into my DMs, but I found this kind of community of women about our age, like 40s and um early 50s, and um they were you know for abortion rights, and we kind of like teamed up to disrupt the disinformation that was coming out of anti-abortion accounts, mostly on Instagram. And it gets really nasty on Instagram. I don't know if you ladies are there, but it's like have you, yeah, maybe you've experienced it. Um yeah. So um, and it was just, I mean, looking back, it was very toxic. There's a whole just horrible story of doxing and um harassment. And there's a that's another whole other story. But um at that time, um, that's what we were doing, and it became like I felt like I was both 12 years old and in an adult bot. I'm like, what am I doing? I'm just, you know, just like it started to feel really bad. Um, but it it kind of suited that time period, right? Like everyone was just angry and trying to figure out a way out, you know. And so I was like trolling around on Instagram and it just didn't feel right though, you know? And so um eventually I was interacting with one of these people online and and he got frustrated with something I was saying, and he actually said, Well, you're just an abortion fluencer, and it was separate, like abortion fluencer. And I'm like, oh my God. And I I told my, you know, my buddies, that's a really good name. I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna embrace it. I'm just gonna take it and call myself the abortion fluencer. And so I just kind of changed it. And um, it sounds weird to say it's a brand, which I hate because I I don't monetize um at all because I really want that freedom. Um and I don't disparage um anyone who, I mean, obviously it's a it's a way of live making a living. Um, and I might have to at some point, but I've resisted um just because you have more freedom, you know, to say what you want and um to a point. And so I've been, let's see, abortion influencer, I think it's been, I'm really bad with time, but I'm gonna say three years now, I think I've been doing this. And um, my followers are organic. Like I haven't done any of the buyered followers or anything like that. I just thought that's really, you know, I don't, I don't want to go that route. So Instagram, we finally started figuring out how to collaborate with other creators. And just recently, like in the last few months, um, I've been collaborating with some really great accounts there who've been helping me elevate my content. And so I'm up to, you know, something like it's still low, but it's still it's like a lot for me, but it's like up to 7,000 followers on Instagram. And TikTok is kind of slowly going 3,000 or so. But um it's it's getting there, you know, and and my thing, like I said, I've always been about like I really want to help, and I don't know everything. I'm I'm here to learn too. Like I have learned so much from younger generations, you know, and activists and um just kind of incorporating what I've learned from them, from what you know, we know from our long, you know, many years in activism. And I'm 51 years old. So I've been, like I said, I've been doing this since when I really got active was um the Bush years and leading up to the Iraq war. And when I really started like um uh joining the protests and stuff like that, I just put out a video actually about um the protests we did yesterday with uh hands off and indivisible and kind of how we need to change that. That's another story maybe we can talk about later. Um, but anyway, that's that's how it started. Um I have like I started with these like graphical kind of like care, I think they call them carousels on Instagram. So kind of taught myself um graphics, like graphic design and that. And then finally I was like, okay, I'm gonna try video. I was really scared to do it because I had been doxxed and harassed by the anties for a while. And I was like, you know what? I just need to come out, like just be brave and embrace it and do this for you know, the next generation of women young women who are facing this just uh horrifying dystopian post-ro world right now, and just you know, suck it up and do it. And so I started doing that. Um, it's been fun. I have kind of a theater background, so it's been fun to kind of like do characters and you know, do the speeches and stuff like that, or essays and stuff. So um, that's kind of the evolution of it. I actually didn't join TikTok until I want to say maybe I feel like it hasn't even been a year yet. So I was really kind of resistant to, you know, because it's all videos and it's like, I don't know if I really want to do that. But start on Instagram, like, yeah, try TikTok. And then I don't know if this happened to you guys, but like the the followers came pouring in at first. I'm like, oh, this is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

And then it just I'm not there yet. Well, we definitely have a um a much smaller audience uh or a f follower list. But yes, at first, and I was barely on TikTok, I was like, I don't know. We joined and I was like, I don't know what to do with this. And there were like some sporadic videos that we put out, yeah and I would see the emails like so-and-so followed you and so-and-so followed you, and I'm like, but why? Yeah, exactly. And then once we started trying to utilize TikTok and making the content and putting out stuff, it was like all of a sudden, like nobody's coming now. Like maybe we should go back to not putting. Yeah, it was much slower. But you know, sometimes the even if it's a smaller audience, if the right people are finding you, you know, then the engagement is good and the message is clear.

SPEAKER_05 18:20

They're there because they want to be, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Yeah. And so I have to remind myself like it's okay if we don't have four million followers. Like, yeah, we'd love to have a bigger platform to send our message, but we're there. The right people will find us when when the time is right for them, for us, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 18:36

Yeah, exactly. And I I'm assuming that you ladies have day jobs as well. Like, I mean, it is, you know, it is. Oh my God, I have so many ideas and I oh I just cannot get to it. I s I still have a I actually want to start a podcast too. And I have like had the intro set and the whatever, and then I have an interview that I want to start, and it's been weeks, and I feel so bad because I yeah, I just haven't gotten around to editing it. It takes forward.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

It's hard, it's really hard. Um we were I won't say lucky, but we kind of decided to do this in 2019, and then look, no one has anything to do. And yeah, so we started when there was nothing else for us to do. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Now it's like in fairness, from the time that we kind of fleshed out the idea to the time we put out the first episode, it was about six months. And the the main feed of the podcast is the TV stuff. Yeah, and so the content was easy because there's just there's no lack of TV shows to watch. So then we had toyed with other ideas and how can we grow and and and then eventually it became spotlight incorporated because we realized, well, we want to talk to people, we we want to have more of the conversations when we meet people and get to know them, but how do you incorporate having a conversation like this one when the podcast is focused around well, what happened in this episode of this show? Yeah, it doesn't work. Right. So it took time for us to get there too. So I mean, you know, not not that again, not that we are so successful in the sense of when it it turns into numbers and stuff like that, but but I do call this success because we have been doing this since tw 2019. We're still looking for ways to grow. So my only advice, even though you didn't ask, is no, please take your time, flush it out, do what feels right to you, and and don't rush it, you know, but but at the same time, don't be afraid to jump in. Because sometimes if you do wait for the right time, the right time is never gonna come. And when when we listen to some of those old episodes, I am like how did we ever put that out? But it just goes to show how we've grown since. Yes. And I think that that's important for other people to hear because we don't all start on third base. Like what we said.

unknown 21:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:20

That's a really good way to put it. Yeah, and I I hate to quote you know, Nike, but just do it. Always come back to that. Just do it, yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's stuck with me. So yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah, I think just to bring TV back into it, only because I think TV's a little bit everyone can relate to um the parallels. Regarding the doxing, the what women are going through since the Roe versus Wade over being overturned, Gray's anatomy when they came back for that season after everything fell apart, has really hit the mark. I think it was like two seasons ago. They really hit the mark with showing what our medical professionals are going through. But along with the women and trying to continue women's reproductive rights, medical rights. Um, OBG O I N is wearing black scrubs because. Like what the hell? I think one of the doctors, the one played by Kate Wash, I love her, she does like a mobile health unit for women looking for medical and she's been doxxed, her life is in danger. It's always so you bring a I don't think people understand I think they just get the whole okay, Rogers is raised over turn, yay, or okay, what is that? Or okay, what does that mean for me? Um and unfortunately, sometimes we have to go to TV to be like, this is what it means to you. Yeah. Unfortunately, because listening to you or listening to me or listening to Lisa and our stories, they're like, oh, that's just you. Well, watch some fake TV and maybe get it. And it does. Some it it does, unfortunately. But it makes it makes me cry, makes me angry, makes me sad, makes me all that other fun stuff.

SPEAKER_05 23:21

Um well, and I think what you're touching on and like more generally is um storytelling. And um yeah, well, in the abortion abortion rights arena, that's what we're talking about because you're absolutely right. Like statistics don't work. I mean, you know, well, facts don't work. Right. Well, yeah, not and yeah, with with Trump, nothing, yeah, facts never work. Yeah. But, you know, when you think of numbers, like, you know, for me, like, okay, that that affects me, but not when you hear, not not as much as when you hear someone's personal story. And so I think, you know, generally the abortion rights movement um has been, yeah, lean has been shifting toward the storytelling part of it because yeah, facts don't don't matter. And so, um, and sadly, I haven't watched Gray's Anatomy. I know that's awful. I shouldn't even say that out loud.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

I'm sorry, we're gonna have to end this episode. We're gonna have to end this interview. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_05 24:15

We're done. That's a deal breaker. Um But no, I want to, and that now you saying that, now I really want to um see it. But I do know that um, just from what I've heard, yeah, they're really good about talking about women's um plight and work and uh medical issues. And um yeah, the storytelling is important. Um, and that's like I and I'm saying it now too, is I I had an abortion in 2020, uh, let's see, two, sorry, 2001, I believe, or 2000, yeah, 2001. And I was like, and you know, we're older ladies, we came from the time of like you just keep it quiet. It was just even though we were like very for women's, you know, reproductive rights, it was just stigmatized so much that we just didn't talk about. I didn't even tell my parents until maybe, I don't know, just five years ago, you know. And it was just one of those things when I'm like, okay, fine, I just need to talk about it. Everyone else, you know, this is what they this is what we need to do is talk about it. It's just healthcare. Like, let's just and that's part of it is destigmatizing it, what you're talking about, you know. Um and the other thing I talk about more now is um, and I'm hoping that and it's not just me, but we're trying to kind of shift the thinking around this is, and I I should have looked this up before I talked to you guys, but I I don't know where like pro-life versus pro-choice came in, but it has been so detrimental in like the the way the media portrays it, and it's it's like abortion, abortion. It's healthcare. It's just it's just healthcare, right? And that whole, you know, team sport, you know, it's taken away. And the media loves that, right? It's red versus blue, it's Republicans versus Democrats, it's pro-choice, pro-life, you know, it's um anti-vaxx versus vaxxers. And it just really ties into like in the United States, we are all about sports, you know, the sports competit like competition, winning, capitalism, we gotta win, we gotta climb our way to the top, you know. And if we could just get away from those, that messaging of like division, you know, and come together on all kinds of things. Um, but yeah, I've been really thinking about the language and how we talk about it. And um, there's another um a woman who's much more versed in all of this, and I want to give her a shout-out, but um, Jessica Valenti. I don't know if you've heard of her. It's called, um, she has a new, like a Substack newsletter called Abortion Everyday. And she was a um, I believe she was a New York Times reporter for a while. Now she's kind of branched out, and she's specifically reporting on abortion all day, all the time, 24-7. She's the one who comes out with like, she's got the breaking news and she's got the kind of inside um stories. And she really talks about language and how the media portrays this and how terrible they are at um talking about this. Um, it's usually that they love, you know, they love if it bleeds, it leads, right? Um, and I I went to journalism school and I remember, you know, that was it. It's like you're always looking for the next headline. And so your headline isn't going to be woman denied healthcare, you know, it's woman leaves fetus and dumpster, and you know, and it's all like she it's centered on women as villains. And, you know, that's throughout time, right? We have a history, the patriarchy, right? We always yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure, and of course you ladies know that. Um, and then also talking about like um women of color, you know, obviously like trying to I'm a white woman. I have all the privilege in the world, you know, the the most privilege, well, aside from white men.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

As much as you can have without a dick, but yeah. Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 27:52

Well that was yes, thank you. Yeah, that was yeah, caveat. Um yeah, we're all in yeah, exactly. We're all under that. But um, yeah, and so that's the other part of it is like I really want to um elevate intersectional um plights and feminism and um and and what's the word I want to center um women of color because they are the most affected and impacted negatively by these bands, just because of the way, you know, our society has um, you know, it's the dis the health disparities and um the healthcare disparities, um, the poverty, you know, the racism, but you know, women of color are accessing abortion more be not because Planned Parenthood is targeting, you know, like going after them. That's the other really bad message. No, it's they're in the neighborhoods where they're needed and they're needed there because women can't afford to have children in the, you know, in those areas. So they're accessing abortion to prevent, you know, economic ruin. And that's a whole other like um it's an economic justice issue, you know, and that's a whole other thing. I hope that we can, like this next generation of feminists can shift toward is abortion as an economic justice issue, not just a healthcare issue. Um, and I I think there's a lot more of that research going on now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

I it also falls with I can, you know, it's easier to get birth control and getting the health care you need from Planned Parenthood, because let's be real, Planned Parenthood does a very small percentage of abortions. Most of it is about education, um, preventive, medical, just it does simple healthcare. Healthcare. And where you have more and more jobs, insurance comp first of all, this if you're lucky enough to have a job with medical benefits, let's be real, most of the just want to give you part-time positions with no benefits. Right. For that reason. For that reason. And if you're lucky enough to have medical benefits, more and more um companies, I'm not gonna say Hobby Lobby, have um say Hobby Lobby. I didn't say that, but their plans don't include coverage for birth control. Yeah. Um, so what do you do? Yeah. You need to monitor your reproductive rights. How can I've awarded in these poor neighborhoods? I've been blessed and lucky that I have I've always been lucky to have exceptional insurance. That's not everyone's reality. That's not everyone's but in the country is actually below the poverty level. Yeah. Bright green, purple. So I would as a country, that's a problem. But most of our country is below that level. So and it's shown in the media that it's uh a people of color uh issue. It's easy to demand. Divide and conquer, let's make everything divisive, as opposed to so the women, all the women, regarding of your social economic standard um level, your I hate to say race because it's not a real thing, but for for the purpose of this episode. I like that. We're just gonna say that to make this short and smooth. Yes. We're all fighting amongst ourselves as opposed to saying, okay, no, we're all on the same boat. Let's work together. Yes. Do you find um with your trolls a lot of women? I'm saying men, I'm saying women for this purpose, yeah, wanting their pro-life, but what they're spouting is really what pro choice is. Because I've got a lot of women, I'm like, well, we need more education. You should have your choice. And we're gonna do pro-life. Well, baby, that's that's pro choice. I hate to say that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:43

Like I've yeah, I've seen it in the context of um, let's see, it's like, I'm pro-life, but I think every woman should have healthcare. I'm like, you're yeah, exactly. Yeah, yes, you're pro-choice then. Like, and that's that's where that pro-choice pro-life thing, I think, is really confusing the issue. It's blurring everything.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Like, making it about abortion and not about the bigger picture, right? Right. Not not everyone that's pro-choice believes in having abortion, but they believe in, oh no, healthcare, freedom, your choice, education.

SPEAKER_05 32:14

You know. Yeah, just don't get an abortion then if you don't believe in it, right?

unknown 32:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05 32:19

Or you don't want it, yeah. Um, but yeah, we've turned it into do you believe in? Like, I don't give a fuck what you believe in. It's healthcare. Like, I don't care what you believe. And that's what I found myself saying a lot to these people is this isn't a debate. The the society and our politicians and the media have turned it into a debate. They're debating our healthcare. And it's so gross to me. It's like we're like they remove our agency yet again, you know, all of these institutions, including our own. Like, I mean, I think of like, um, I don't really want to name names either, but um, I tried to reach out to um National Organization of Women, you know, now was like the original, like I see pictures of these women in the street, you know, with the now um banners and stuff back in the 70s. And I reached out, I can't remember the issue, but it was something more on the lines of reproductive justice, like um, or economic justice. And the woman just blocked me. She, she wouldn't talk to, like, literally blocked me on Instagram. She wouldn't talk to me about it. And I was like, wow, this is where we are. We're into, I have a brand and I have this organization and I have this nonprofit, or and it's just this weird, and I think it's just the broader for I I think, I don't know, what do I know? But I think it's the broader institution of capitalism and how it just divides us. Like we're all, even the influencers, like I I want to collaborate and I want us to all elevate our voices because we have a healthcare right to get back. But I have had so many larger accounts, these influencers who just completely ignore me. Like I've actually reached out an email, like, hey, can we like I was trying to help organize the women's strike last summer, and we could not get any traction, not only from these bigger institutions like the Women's March, you know, and and they are institutions now. They're like, they're part of the Democrat Party. And it's feed and this is what I was talking about with the the protests from yesterday. It's dawned on me finally that like it's all sending us back to what was normal. And normal doesn't work for most of us. Yeah. I mean, I think even people with healthcare like like Agnes, like you, I have healthcare too, you know, through my work, and it's pretty good. But we're still paying for it, you know, like so much more than any other, you know, social, you know, like socialized medicine, whatever you call it. Um I would say just healthcare as a right. And so yeah, we have, yeah, and I back to the division thing. I just even on like the left side, um, and this is where I get into like really touchy um territory, I feel like, but some of the younger generations, um, they get really upset about language um and like or are performative, I would say maybe. So for example, I'll give you an example. So um I was part of uh an abortion fund uh or was volunteering for an abortion fund here in in Denver, and I kind of gotten away from it because I've gotten busy with other things. Um but they were they were putting out the message, there was some protests, and they're like, okay, but we don't want anyone wearing handmaid's tail costumes because it centers white women and the whole story centers white women, and we don't want to put out that message. And I'm like, I don't think a black woman who doesn't have access to, you know, abortion right now, or you know, they're like all reproductive, I don't think she gives a shit what people are wearing to a protest.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Like, you know, and as a woman of color, I can attest to that you are covenant. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not just we really don't do that. It's funny when we're doing the um Black the Black Lives Movement was big and well still is big and they took away like problematic episodes on TV. Like that's not what we're asking for. Was it like that's not what we said? Can we stop? Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. We we saw that episode, we thought it was funny. Can we that's kind of what we want? Um I feel like it's like to your point, it's kind of like let's focus on giving them what they want, but really not giving them what they want. Let's give the impression of it and just hide the fact that we're not doing anything productive.

SPEAKER_05 36:36

Yeah, performative, right? Oh my gosh, yeah. And I I and I I know maybe it's that we're and are you are you all Gen X? Are you millennial? Gen X? Okay, so okay, I just want to make sure. Yeah, Gen X. Yeah, no, I I don't, yeah, I did that, I made that mistake before. Oh, sorry. We're Gen X, but um no, but yeah, so we're Gen X and I realized that we grew up in a time where, you know, there were like homo, you know, homophobic jokes in our sitcoms, and like we didn't, you know, get it. And I like there's a time and a place. That's all I want to say is like, yes, when we're analyzing, you know, TV and you know, whatever, time and a place. Let's put it aside though for the higher issue. Like just, and I don't know, I I don't know. I don't know how to solve, you know, how we can fix that. Um, because I just feel like we're, especially with social media and like there's everyone has an opinion and they're getting it from all kinds of places. And now, of course, they're obliterating any kind of critical thinking that we may have had this much, you know, in public school and like erasing black history. And, you know, I just yeah, we're we're in a really tough time. I I do hope that we still have social media to help educate because I think that's gonna be the place, you know. It has been, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

We have to continue that because at this point they're not gonna learn anything other than it's become okay, Lisa, you might have to edit me once you listen to this, but it's it's becoming very North Korea-esque, and I can we can kind of see it happening. And I'm like, okay, great. I told my daughter who's uh 25 had two kids. I'm like, we gotta get the passports. Get the boys their passports. You because just in case. Yeah. I we don't know. Absolutely. I don't yeah. I think that's good advice, but yeah. You just don't know what's going to happen. Is it little is it scare tactics? Maybe we just being overly paranoid. Maybe, but I'm sure once again, I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm sure there was people in the 1940s and Germany, they're like, oh no, it's we're gonna be fine. This this cannot happen. We cannot get like this is no way he can't, oh shit, he did.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Yeah, except the difference is we've already seen this movie. Yes, we have the blueprint right.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

But so I they saw that, but you know it's a funny thing. There was history too, but to not to this extent. But you don't think that people are going to who saw this happen in the past is gonna let this happen again. And so you're like, oh shit, they they did they did. Okay, so it's really I yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:14

Well, uh and to piggyback off that, um, you know, you said north North Korea-esque, and so with like the handmaid's tale, let's let's talk about that. And have you guys watched the Hulu um I read the book. I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

You read the book because of the book. I'm like, I don't know if I could see this because it's gonna get it's gonna have too many emotions.

SPEAKER_05 39:34

Yeah, and I I read the book too, and I read it when I was in my late 20s, I think, and it it stuck with me. Um the Hulu series has done a it's it's been good, but it's this is hard to watch. But here's what I learned. Um, and oh shoot, sorry. Break. I think my my thing is unplugged here. Sorry. Um, so the Hammaid's Tale book, so Margaret Atwood, the author, um, what I learned was she actually based, and maybe you guys know this, she based, yeah, she based Gilead on real totalitarian um systems and organizations or systems and governments. And so I'm like, okay. And you know, I'm thinking, oh yeah, of course, I can see, you know, Hitler and uh Mussolini and um Stalin and you know all these things. And then I started to dive into a little bit and I did the video about it. Um, but yeah, it's it's Salem, you know, it's the witch trials here in America, Puritan America. It's slavery, of course, forcing black women to give birth against their will, doing gynecological experiments on them without anesthesia, um, the torture of women in those regimes. Um, yeah, or yeah, I guess we could call it regime, but that that far right, that Christian like ignorance and zealotry and like um, you know, witch hunts, like real witch hunts, not the one, you know, not going after Trump, but like for real crimes, but like just pointing and I don't know. I was I was listening, we were my husband and I were listening to something about Salem witch trials again, and just it's terrifying. Like I just I'm like, is that gonna start happening here where you can just be like, oh yeah, that person and so going back to we don't know where we're going. And so I think it's good to be to treat it. Here's an example. We said, oh, they're never going to overturn Roe v. Wade. They're never going to, you know, and I'm like, they're gonna, they're gonna do it. We've been watching it for years. They're going to do it. Yeah. But again, with the whole like um the stigma and then making it, oh, it's a women's issue, which no, it's not just a woman's issue. Um, it really marginalized the issue. And and this is the other thing I get really, and I know it's my issue, you know, it's like my baby, you know, my my personal baby issue and in my activism, but I get so frustrated with how abortion rights aren't mentioned in the larger scheme. Like, for example, going back to TV, John all I love John Oliver, um, Jon Stewart, love them, but whenever they talk about things generally, never reproductive rights. I have not heard it. And maybe someone can correct me on that.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

But yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:18

And it's just like white men, not, you know, I'm sorry, well, you know, white men not talking about it again. And it's just, oh, it's so frustrating. And even in the the protests yesterday, you know, you're like, hands off my Medicaid, hand on. I never heard hands off my body or our bodies, you know, which was part of the average.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

I did see some of those where I was.

SPEAKER_05 42:38

Okay, good. There were a few. I saw some signs, but but like the speeches.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

But yeah, most of it was like social security research, yeah, you know, the general Which is yeah, which is important.

SPEAKER_05 42:49

I don't want to, I don't want to detract, of course. We, you know, all of it. But what I heard, what really connected for me at the protest was like it's all interconnected. And if we keep, you know, doing these kind of like corporate sponsored, you know, nonprofit sponsored, democratic sanctioned.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Things don't yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:10

And we're just marching in a circle and nothing changes ever. I, you know, I've seen this in, I'm sure you joined, yeah, you joined protests too. Nothing changes. It's it's great. We get our anger out, you know, we can have solidarity.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

It feels good to do something.

SPEAKER_05 43:25

But yeah, it feels good to do something, but it just doesn't, you know, and like my husband was saying, like, okay, we saw the pictures, like hundreds of thousands of people. That should change their, you know, they should be changing their policies.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

I'm like, they never do, you know, because it's it doesn't this it doesn't affect them. There's no right, it's not power. Right. They like, okay, you march. Uh it doesn't affect what we're gonna decide to do in these rooms. Um you have no power.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Yeah, and the thing is, right? So uh my eldest daughter went also, her and I went together, she's 18. Nice, and we were talking in the car, and I'm just like, you know, you would think, I mean, people have the right to protest, right? Wherever they are, whatever they're against, that's fine. I mean, I saw a protest of like four people protesting for Tesla, like Tesla lives matter, and I'm just like, oh god, if that's not the dumbest thing, but hey, it's your right, go for it. But you would think that here is this movement and You know, we can talk about the sponsorship and the corporation and the does it work, does it not work aspect of it? But but at the end of the day, in every state people are showing up. In other countries, people are showing up. And at what point does the person who says, no, no, no, I I voted for Trump look at this and say, wait, why do so many people want to speak out against him? And and this is just more than you know owning the libs, because I get I get the whole winning aspect of the language and and all that. But when people are in other countries and and are so passionate about speaking up against what he is doing in a country that probably doesn't even affect their daily lives, right? What at what point do we say because had this been my candidate and I see all this and I'm like, but why why do they hate him so much? Like, what do they care? Why does England care? Why does Paris care? What I would start thinking, like, what am I missing? And the crazy thing is that they they just don't. They're just like, oh, they're losers, they don't, they hate, they hate, they're haters. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:42

So it's not not a lot of critical thinking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

No.

SPEAKER_05 45:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

No, there's a lot of mental gymnastics though.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Back to our health care. Um, yeah. I have to say the local hospital where I live, I don't know, five-ish years ago, was um purchased by a larger a larger medical company and it was religious, it's a religious-based organization. And yeah, right. And they're like, okay, um, they stopped doing tuber ligations. I was like, oh, oh, oh, that's nice. Um so are you gonna stop doing vasectomies too? It's never about men's health care. It's not so it's not about health care. If it was about pro-life, it was about health care, it's it's it's it's I think it's about control. Of women. Um because and the fact that I mean, thankfully I'm not, I'm thankfully I'm not married, but um, wait, I have to get my husband's signature for my body, but he can go and get his snip to snip with no problem. No one has ever seen a problem with that, and that's been it that's been an issue for decades. It's nothing new. And I'm like, how does not that bother you? We had uh I was a hat, a mutual acquaintance. Um both times. Um she was complaining about the giving birth to one of her children, how something it wasn't covered. I didn't remember something Yeah, I don't remember what it was. And I said, so you so that's the problem. She's like, well, my list wasn't covered. I said, yeah, just because it wasn't covered, that shows you that it's a problem. So voting for Trump doesn't help that problem. Like she she's gotten to the point where she thinks it was okay just because they're sure it's in cover part of the birth.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Right. You were but she also had a nice bank account that could cover it. So for her, it was a complaint, but not a problem. Not a problem.

SPEAKER_05 47:47

Oh, yeah, yeah, there it is.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

You can't complain about it and think it's okay. It was just it was just so yeah. I'm like, I I don't know which is worse, honestly. Um, old white men make a stitch for my body or other women going along with it. I'm like, I don't know which is worse. So I say that all the time.

unknown 48:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

Going back to like what you were saying about Gray's anatomy, um I've I've been re-watching um Call the Midwife. I don't know if you've ever watched it.

SPEAKER_05 48:14

Oh, I want to, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Yeah, and and so like I had started it years ago, never finished it. Now there's a new season, and I'm like, oh, you know what, this is a good time to pick it back up. And I mean, listen, for anybody out there who wants to kind of look at like a snapshot of women's and medical history and how they intersect. And now, granted, this is taking place in a poorer neighborhood of London, but the issues are the same, right? It's birth control, miscarriages, health care, abortions, and you see the same themes, right? Oh, the shame of an unwed mother and how she tries to help the situation. And what happens is if she's caught, she goes to jail. Oh, and who did this to you because they go to jail or the woman who has the ba who has too many babies but can't get birth control because her husband won't allow it, or who is left with the burden because the husband or the boyfriend or the whoever can walk away and once again, you know, we're left holding the bag. And but one of the beautiful things, because it is London, right? There's National Health Service. So it's like what a refreshing idea. You know, in the episode that I watched, the woman has she's pregnant, she has um she she's having an issue with her breast, and they're like, Well, you know, it's probably not mastitis, you haven't given birth yet. But listen, let's go right now, let's go to the hospital and have it checked out. And like by the next day, she has a biopsy, she's diagnosed, she's taken care of, and they're like, We'll be with you every step of the way. And I'm like, Wow, what a refreshing idea to have healthcare that just works for you, you know, regardless of whatever implications it might have, you know, what's legal, what's not illegal, but it's such a beautifully written show and a beautifully I mean, because it's based on memoirs from uh a woman who was the the midwife, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

And the the writer goes back through medical journals of that time, because like 50s, 60s, and she's looking for what the things were. So we're talking about polio, we're talking about um the um the litomide, you know, we're talking about all of these things and so it's such a snapshot of history. And if you watch it with the critical eyes and an open mind, you're like, wait a minute. Like you can almost see the parallels you know, between what is happening now and what is and racism. I mean, you know, there's so much, but regression.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Yeah, unfortunately. I was um well, you may I'm sorry. I would I didn't want to think I was just playing off Facebook or something. I was looking to make sure my memory was correct when we're talking about the winch the witch hunts. Wow, words are hard today. Um years ago when Texas D at Texas DA was prosecute trying to prosecute a woman who left the state to get an abortion.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Well, there was even one with the e-health, right? Because the doctor, it was like a remote, like an e-doc. And so the doctor was in a different state and could prescribe, and then they still they're trying.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

They're trying. Yeah. And I think I think that he lost I think that the bar was investigating him. But to actually if a if Billy Bobo commits murder a Texas resident commits murder in New Mexico, Texas is a good person to com to to put him that's New Mexico's issue. Right. But it's okay to find a follow a woman across the world. Yeah. So you said the witch hunt, I'm like, oh wait, we are being hunted down.

SPEAKER_05 52:11

We're well, uh yeah. And uh there's uh I'll try to get this right, but I think it's in Ms. Mississippi or Missouri, one of those horrible M states.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

It's right, it's probably right.

SPEAKER_05 52:24

But um, they have a new, it's not past yet, but um, it's an actual, oh gosh, now we're gonna get into really creepy territory, but um, so it's a database they want to start of women who are thinking about possibly getting an abortion. And how are they going to figure out who those people are? Through the, we call them fake pregnancy centers, the crisis pregnancy centers who have no HIPAA regulations. So they can do whatever they want with your data. And they are going to collect that information and say, oh, well, this young woman came in and she's at risk for getting an abortion. And they're going to track that woman and they're going to harass the hell out of her and keep calling her and say, Have you gotten that abortion yet? You need to, you know, and they will delay them until it's too late in the state or, you know, whatever it is, which puts that person's life in danger. I mean, literally, we we know, you know, you uh both of you have had children, right? Like I haven't even had children and I know. Three daughters. Like, yeah, okay. So it's things go wrong all the time. And, you know, women die from this. And it it is and yes, it's really nothing new, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:35

Because we've heard these stories. I mean, and the outcome may be different, but we've heard these stories about these crisis centers that women will go to, and and but really their pro-life, you know, and I I use that term with quotes.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

So the goal is really not to help the woman, and and traditionally, as far as I know, it's not to track the woman, but it is to delay, it is to try to get her to change her mind instead of just offering the help that she's looking for.

SPEAKER_05 54:06

But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:08

And I I've started to do, and again, it's one of those projects that's on my to-do list, but I started to do a little deep dive into it's just terrifying, but a little go down the rabbit hole with these crisis pregnancy centers. And there is this oh, it's creepy, but like a let's see, how do I put it? They're in so in bed with the Republican Party that I see them as little more than basically fundraising um mechanisms for the GOP. And it's this vicious cycle of like, you know, the money that they collect from donations from people, it goes into the the GOP and the GOP, you know, supporting these centers and these like yeah, and they have this whole plan to replace abortion clan to put basically report replace Planned Parenthood with crisis pregnancy centers. And they're they call them women health centers or something like that. And that is their plan. That's the project 2025 um plan for these. And it is little no like there is um, and this is part of my the interview I'm trying to do for my podcast, but um, there are a couple of women, and I forget how they came to me, but somehow they came to me and were like, hey, we were um part of that the protesters during the summer of rage. It was 2022, I believe, after the jobs decision was leaked. And they were federally targeted and charged under the FACE Act, which is the that um defending clinics um act that was passed way back. It was meant to go after anti-abortion um violence and harassment. And the Biden administration used it to go after pro-choice activists who just did graffiti on some crisis pregnancy centers. And they went after them federally. This is terrifying it is so scary. And that and that's what I want to say. This is not a blue or red issue. This is a patriarchy issue. It is both parties doing this. This was Biden's DOJ. Um, and anyway, so they they're in um, I think both of them are in Florida now, but um, they one of the pregnancy centers was in Miami, Florida. Yeah, Miami, Florida. And um, I think it's called International Heartbeat or something. It's a huge, huge network of these things. And they're the woman who is the president, I believe, or the founder, she's connected with these mega people and like literal J6 um insurrectionists. Like they're all connected. And we've seen this connection between these um the insurrectionists and anti-abortion rhetoric. It is like again, this is not a women's issue. Oh shoot, I am getting battery low. Sorry. Um let me just put that all go by that. Like this is uh, there we go. I came in. So this isn't a women's issue. This is a sorry, I think I paused. This isn't a women's issue. It is a, you know, this is a um, I'd say a homeland security issue. This is like safety issue. Like it is so scarily interconnected, and that's what I I want people to start understanding. And the media is not gonna help us, so we have to, you know, do that. But I want people to start understanding. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:27

I mean, and I say we, um maybe not Agnes and I, but but the independent people who dare to speak up and well you you are because you're elevate you're helping elevate this message right now, you know.

SPEAKER_05 57:40

So you are, yeah, all of us are. Anyone who is, you know, getting this information out is is doing something. So I really appreciate you you all doing this again.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

And this is I mean, this is important to us and you know, as women, because I mean, you know, Agnes, I hope you I mean, I hope you don't mind me telling the your business, but Agnes and I have both chosen to surgically close factories, right? So abortion, the the right to an abortion really does not affect her and I personally, but it does affect people that we care about. It affects people in general. People in general, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 58:21

How dare we care about other people?

SPEAKER_02 58:24

I know that's what activism is about. But right, right. And and at the end of the day, right? It's not our fucking business why the next person goes to their doctor to seek an abortion or to seek a vaccine or to seek a vitamin B12 shot. It really just does not concern us uh at all. So why do we fucking care? Except at the end of the day, we need to be able to do what we need to do for ourselves, for our health, for our children, for our families, for our mental well-being. And even if not, it doesn't matter to because it's not our business. It we just know that people need to the access for their own life.

SPEAKER_05 59:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

And we need to mind the fucking like mind our business and shut the fuck up. Mind your fucking business.

SPEAKER_05 59:13

Yeah. Well, I I don't want to terrify you, but more, but here's how here, so you know, and I I know what you're saying, it doesn't affect us personally. And and my husband has a vasectomy, and we're, yeah, no, um, closed for business. Um, obviously, and I'm 51, so that's you know, almost over anyway. But um, no, this is how it does personally affect us, which I didn't even think of the larger ramifications, but so in, and this is my other, the other side of my, and I'm not gonna say my work, but I I work for um in healthcare. I'm a writer, editor, reporter kind of in um healthcare management space. And so I see like the other side, which is kind of gross because it's about profit making, but also how how hospitals and doctors and um primary primary care uh the executives are affected by all of these horrible policies, right? And so I kind of see that side. And as a patient, you know, I know how it feels from that side. So um let's see, where was I going with that? Okay. So what I've learned, I I was able to interview this woman um who is she runs a um women's clinic in Tennessee. So one of the worst places for abortion rights. Um, and she was talking about how um, so because we're having problems in rural areas generally for healthcare, like these places are shutting down. Um, but they are shutting down maternal care units in rural hospitals because they don't have the staff. Right. Because this, and you may have seen this, the staff is flee, you know, leaving red states because they can't do their damn job. So imagine your mom or us, like imagine you get, God forbid, you get uterine cancer and you have a gynecologist you go to in your, you know, your hospital. That person, your doctor leaves. They can't, they can't afford. Where do you go? There's no doctor. You either have to travel to another state or I I don't know, like you die, you die. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

And then if you travel to another, insurance can cover because a lot of insurance is is local and regional, you know. So you're like, okay, absolutely. I can't afford to leave the state. First of all, I gotta I got to get out of this rural area and drive, if I have a car, to another state. I gotta afford to pay gas for that. I'm gonna have to do hotel food and gas. And that's I have insurance that's gonna cover that medical care in a different state.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:42

You got it. Yeah, exactly. And that's where it targets low-income people the you know, the worst.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

And it's so far. And it's worse in low-income areas, it's worse in rural areas. But so I, I mean, Agnes and I grew up in New York. Right now, I'm in Jersey, but I mean, I'm I'm I could throw a rock and hit New York. I mean, you know. But I I actually worked for a company who was kind of like an insurance broker for um like businesses, small businesses, and and we facilitated them enrolling their employees, finding the right finding the right policy for their people and enrolling them. And like my job, I mean, I can't sit here and pretend to tell you that I know everything about the insurance companies. My job was mostly just to get them enrolled into the right plan, get their documentation, make sure that they're in and even between New York and New Jersey there were still so many of those clauses where oh, but I I I want to plan because I travel. Oh no, but too bad, you can't you can't use this outside of New Jersey when New York City is right there with more access to you know, quite possibly better doctors or or specialists because, you know and it's still right, you're a bus ride away. You're a half hour car ride away. I mean, you're not you're not talking about rural America where there's one hospital and you you have to drive 15 minutes to see your neighbor. I'm talking about I got a bus on my corner that will take me to Port Authority. You're telling me that I can't get on that bus and see a doctor because it's a different state when it's right there down the block from my office where I work. It's ridiculous, right? It's ridiculous. Healthcare should just not be dependent on your job.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:39

Absolutely. And, you know, the uh I I don't know. I mean, I'm sure this is why they do it, but you look at unhoused people and you're like, that's why I need to keep my horrible job is for the healthcare. And they know that. They know that's gonna keep you at your horrible job. And they can explain, I mean, we're all like indentured servants, honestly, at our jobs and in that way. And yeah, I I agree with you, like universal health care, and that's what I say to these forced birth people who are, you know, oh, we care about the mom and the baby. I'm like, oh, okay, well, universal health care. That would really help moms and babies, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

But no, we can't do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:14

And I lose them.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

Yeah, they're like, no, I lose them. I when we first when it first became an issue, a huge issue, about 10 years ago, you would say, like when it's first became a fight.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:25

I'm like, okay, what about the pro-lifers all sign up for a registry and they have to adopt a baby? You can't tell me how to plan my family. Yes. Um hypocrisy. That's kind of what they're doing. They're like, but I don't see it. Of course you don't. And it's sad that a lot of the a lot of us on I say us as a country are voting or not voting against our own interest. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:50

And it comes into play all the time, especially with the you know, universal health care or single payer healthcare, right? And and right away, I can't tell you how many times it's like, oh, so you want to make wait three months for an appointment? I have news for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

You know how commonly six months already. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

You know how common that is already? Oh, but it's and who's gonna pay for it? Who's paying for your health care now? You are, except and it's more, yeah. Right. That it's more, and and they have the the freedom to say, you know what, we don't think that you need that denied.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

Non-medical professionals right now can tell you you don't need medical assistance.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:26

Only in this country do people fight against their best interests. I I'm convinced.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:32

Well, yeah, it is it's insane.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:34

I mean insanity.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:36

I I had a little glimmer of hope with um the whole Luigi Mangioni um CEO assassination. And like, I mean, people were I I expected the whole, you know, the media would twist it and oh, this poor man. And and they tried, but you know, we saw it on social media. Like most even older generations of people were like, and and Republicans were like, oh no, that yeah, we understand. I mean, not not that we condone it, but but we understand.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

You cannot like you could definitely condone it, but understand the the the sentiment behind it. Yeah, but that just about 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:15

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:17

Yeah, I think a lot of the outrage for some people is that they're seeking the death penalty for him. Oh, and when you compare that against people who Go and you know pew pew in a school and it's like, oh, kids prayers, you know, slap on the wrist. And it's like, but why is this one CEO who Yeah directly? Well, yeah, you know, responsible for so many people dying or losing their their homes, their jobs, their everything worth more than our babies. Uh it's and like you said, we know why. Yeah, but it's it's not fair and it's not okay, and something has to change.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:55

And and just to make it a little bit more specific towards this, why is I don't want to say this sounds really callous. Um, but his murder is bigger than the and essentially the murder of how many murders did these insurance companies as a whole cause by not approving life-saving measures denied by non-medical professionals. And it's every day. How many people just have to fight with their insurance company to cover that basic medicine? Oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:29

I I have three daughters, okay? My first daughter was born in a hospital with an obstetrician. Okay. My second daughter was born in a hospital with a midwife. My third daughter was born at home with a midwife. Now let me tell you, the costs of those three births vary. The first one was the most expensive, and the last one was the cheapest. Do you know how the insurance company fought me if they did not pay for the third one? And I was like, are you kidding me? If I go into a hospital, you're easily looking at a $30,000 bill. And she's asking for ten. Why would you not cut? No, no, no, no, no, we can't. It's out of network. We can't.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:23

Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:25

You work for me. I'm saving you twenty thousand dollars, right? Plus plus the extras, you know, the nurseries, the medication, the administration, uh whatever, whatever they want to. I got a bill for a thousand dollars to put my daughter in a nursery on the second one. And I was like, um, whoa, she was in the room with me the whole time. So I'm not paying that. But yeah, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. A ten thousand dollar bill from start to finish that included all of my antenatal appointments, all of my postnatal appointments, oh my gosh, the birth, everything. And you're really gonna sit here and say, we don't cover that. You should go to the hospital.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:03

So counterintuitive. Because they work together.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:06

Because they work together. They work together.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:08

Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

You know, because they want to push the doctor, they want to push the hospital. They don't want to pay for the midwife who's maybe giving me what I considered the best care.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

Because it doesn't push their narrative, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:24

Sorry, it just kind of reminded me of like um the history of, and I like I've learned so much since looking into this stuff, but like the AMA, so American Medical Association, you think uh like this is the standard, gold standard of, you know, whatever. Yeah. And I can have you maybe you guys know, but the the history of it is so they were all white men, of course. And it started way back when, so when midwife, um, it was black black midwives were right, yeah, okay, yeah, were doing the care, and they basically said, nope, um, they're stealing our business. You know, the AMA, sorry, not they, the AMA, they're stealing our business. Um, we are just going to put out this propaganda that it's unsanitary, you know, your life's in danger if you go to the body. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

The business of being born is an eye-opening little document.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:14

Oh my gosh. Oh, that's good. Okay. Business of being born.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

It's a Ricky Lake production, but it does go into the history of how birth has moved from the home to the hospital and just how lovely a home birth or less or less a birth with less intervention could be and and less traumatic. And I mean, listen, and it's not for everyone, right? And I believe in the right for you to choose where you want to give birth. You want to have a hospital birth, you want to have an epidural, C-section, forceps, episiotomy, you go for it. Exactly. I don't want that.

unknown 1:10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:53

And I should have the right to choose.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:55

Back to the choice. Absolutely. Revolutionary idea. Making choices for yourself. I know. Bananas. We must be crazy to want to do that for ourselves.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:04

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

What are we thinking?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:06

Yeah. And if we take it to that level of like like misogyny and turn like institutionalized misogyny and racism and all of that, and and like really look at it through that lens. Like the echo, like I said, the economic justice and reproductive justice lens is really um what it boils down to. And that's taken me some as a white privileged woman, you know, I it took me some time to learn that and really get it to my core. Like, oh, okay, I see the difference now between reproductive rights and repr reproductive justice. And that's when language does matter, you know, and like like what it means. Um, and like how much of it just ties together, like um environmental justice and how that ties in with racial justice. And like it really is interconnected. And our institutions have spent a lot of money and a lot of time and energy making sure that we are divided on because who wins? That's the wealthy. The 1%. The wealthy. Yeah, the 1% win. Yeah. And that's who they serve. And so I, yeah, that's the other thing. My husband and I, and my husband is like rebellious, um, real lefty, like even more than me. But um, but yeah, that's what we talk about, is like we, and that other people are starting to talk about is this is a class issue, not a right and left issue. This is a class issue. And if we could just get these mega idiots on board, like like you said, they're voting against their own interests. And um, if we could just come together on the, you know, and and figure out ways we can talk to them about, like, you know, that doesn't trigger them, you know, like I don't know, like healthcare. Like, um, do you believe that women, that a woman should be able to decide between a home birth and a, you know, um hospital birth? Well, yeah. Okay, well, we agree on that. Let's go from there, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Little baby steps.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:50

Yeah, just a little common ground. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

And I sometimes I feel like it's not even so much politicians, but I think if we were vi another it's another huge obstacle, but if we get corporations out of our governments, that is a huge step and starting to make some changes. Because I can vote for whoever I want to vote, who I believe is I believe, and I trust that they believe in themselves at this point. But once they're in office, you have corporations running our company and pushing their narrative and doing this. And then we all know how the government works, and it's all willing and dealing. You you know, it's Vegas on a on a political scale. You let's be wrong. Yeah, and it's it's always okay. Follow the money. You get your end. Yeah, and if we can get the money out of our government, Citizens United, George Bush.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:45

Yeah, we that's the that's the one. Yeah, we gotta get rid of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:49

But nobody else, as a country, even if we all eventually came together. It doesn't know the one. Yeah. When we have these companies actually running our government and not a politician that we voted for, it's never gonna change. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:04

Well, actually, that's a great um segue if if you don't mind me talking about it. But yeah, what I somebody the video I just um put out was, and so I hope I don't get too radical. But um, so and this is not me either, but um, so the story I told, so I went to the hands-off um indivisible protest yesterday, and I just I had this kind of like like I wanted to, but I wasn't as pumped up about it as I have been in the past. And um, and I used the this sign that has like deport Trump and it has a picture of me like punching him or something that my friend drew me a long time ago. And um and and I just recycled it and I just I just didn't feel like I didn't want to make a new sign, and I thought, oh, you know, recycle, that's good, and I don't have time. And but then I realized it was symbolic because it's the same sign I used in 2017. Like it was the same exact issues. It was about, you know, remove ice and deport, you know, it was about the deportations, which are, which are even worse now. And um, and so I went there and um there were a couple of things that happened. There was um that there was a man, uh, so we were up front by the Capitol, and I met with my friend and her mom, and they they had a spot there. And there's this really tall guy there with this big sign, and he was in front of everyone. And my friend very politely said, Hey, maybe you could move to the side so people can see around you. He's like, Nope, I'm gonna stand right here. Just nope. And I'm like, that's okay, that's not why we're here. We're not here to show off our signs.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

We're here together to prove a message, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:35

Yeah. And and so that kind of set the tone a little. And my friend was really upset. She's like, I can't deal with this energy. And we we moved, you know, and there were a lot of people there, and there was a lot of energy. And I don't want to shame anyone for being there. Like, we you came out. Um, I do believe like silence is complicity, whatever. Like you were there.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:53

I saw a lot of those signs. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:56

Yeah. So you were, yeah, you were there. So yeah, so you can probably relate to some of this. Um, and then so when we moved, we realized that just down the hill at our capital, Denver Capitol, just down the hill, there was a pro-Palestine liberation kind of move like uh rally. And at first we were like, oh, that's weird. Okay, oh, I think I see what they're doing. They're trying to disrupt a little bit. And I'm like, that's good, that's fine. And they were very cool about it. They weren't like up on the Capitol steps, you know. They had their way, but they had their bullhorns and they were doing their chants and talking and stuff. And so we started listening to them. And then um, we kind of were like in between, and so we were watching people. We were just kind of watching people. And my friend was saying, God, back in my day, you know, Jesus, RH too, like back in the day, we used to talk to people. We used to like, you know, have conversations about this. And everyone's like, we're just separate. No one's really having conversations. We're not talking to each other. Like we're like, ooh, cool sign, and we're taking pictures of signs, but and you'll see that online right now, like, oh, there's all these funny signs, right? And I'm like, what the hell are we doing? And so, okay, and so we had that moment, and then um, my husband and I saw, okay, they're starting to march. And in our, and so we started following along, and it started to dawn on us. Um, we're not on the parade route that we saw. And I think our group is the pro-Palestinian um liberation movement. Now, this is where it changes, and this is what I want people, I hope, to start thinking about is like what you said, something needs to change. Okay, how does that change? We start actually disrupting business. Like, you don't get this, like, we have a permit to be here, right? That that doesn't do anything. We're asking permission. These are our streets. We should be on our streets. And so we followed them. And I'm like, we're a little nervous, but we're like, that's okay. We're in the this is where we need to be. This is where I feel energized, you know, this is what I was feeling. And so we ended up blocking a pretty main, main street downtown for a good amount of time until we started hearing sirens. And then they're like, okay, let's keep walking. And it wasn't panic, it wasn't like scatter. It was just like we're, you know, we kept walking. Like, um, and I keep, I remembered um the woman with the bullhorn was like, our struggles are interconnected. And that really stuck with me. Like, yes, that is the point. Um, and then, and then we had like the I called them the liberals, you know, the the girl bosses, you know, at the other rally were like kind of disparaging, like, I wish they need to go away, you know, the the other, you know, and I'm like, this is not, this is weird. And so I started just like thinking about what is so weird. And then so my my husband and I were taking the train um home, and it was paffed with all the you know, the protesters. We were surrounded by a group of white women, and we were on the train. We lived near um Denver University, um, but on the way to this wealthier um suburb called Littleton, which is like the end end of the road. So I'm like, I bet they're going to Littleton, you know, that that kind and uh try not to be judgmental, but um, but they just had like no self-awareness. One of their the backpack was bumping into my husband constantly. She was moving around, like no, no apology, just like and no eye contact, no camaraderie anymore. It was just each to their it was so weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:13

Like, why?

SPEAKER_05 1:19:14

Yeah, we're just separate, like we were just performative, right? And so, yeah, and we're like, hmm. And I think my husband was like, I bet they're on their way to Littleton, though. It's like, oh yeah, I see what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:25

Um and then, yeah, and and then um, sorry, I'm almost done. Um, so then like we're packed in, right? And so our stop was coming up, and I'm just like, hey everyone, we're getting off here. Thank you, you know, just to like get us, you know. And my husband overheard one of these women going, Well, I'm not moving until the train stops.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:43

I'm just like, What is this about? How did you come from a protest for unity? And then you're just I and I think it's because they really That's it. Yeah, because I did it, and then they don't care the outcome because ultimately it may not even affect them.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:02

Oh shit, I don't know. I I had I had an opposite moment yesterday. So Okay, good, good. Sorry. I have a doggy door in my bedroom. Oh and but it's loud. All right, come on, lay down. Um so my my daughter and I went. Um, she did work yesterday, so um there there wasn't one in the town that I live in. So we went to Metutcheon, New Jersey, because it was not too far and it fit in for her to be able to attend after work. I'm not very familiar with it. We got there and I'm like, I wanted to take a cab, but I you know, money's tight. So I was like, all right, let's let's just let's just drive, we'll figure it out. So I'm looking for parking and I see all this parking and there's only one car out on the street. And I'm like, I I don't know. So I asked this lady and I'm like, excuse me, I'm uh you know, I'm so sorry to bother you. Do you know if this is public parking? And she's like, you know, I'm not really sure. And then she goes, Are you guys parking because you're going to the protest? And I said, Yeah, and she goes, My house is that one right there. Park in my driveway. I said, Are you sure? She goes, Yeah, if you're going to the protest, park in my driveway. I was like, Oh my god, thank you so much. So we did, and my daughter, we went in my daughter's car and it's it's teeny, so it fit no problem. And then when we got after we parked and we walked like the two blocks, we saw her again, and you know, and I stopped her and I said, You know, I just want to say thank you again. And she was like, Absolutely, like I was like, you know, I don't know this lady, but like a small, small act of kindness, and it really meant a lot to us, you know, like she didn't have to do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:43

She, you know, that's awesome, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:46

But it was, and and we had uh someone who came and you know, face all hidden and uh facing the crowd, and you know, with his thing and his uh MAGA hat you know and chanting, you know, hands on and go Trump and go Trump. You know, obviously he's looking for the reaction, and a lady next to me was like, Why are you hiding your face and you know, forget them? And I don't know where this lady came from behind me, and she was like, excuse me, you know, and she was like, She her and this other man came out in front and they were like, We're not gonna do this, we're not going to give him what he wants. Like, we have to remember why we're here. You know, and it wasn't like the people who were who were talking to him were were being um derogatory or arrogant or aggressive, but it you know, it was the same things that we were all thinking, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:47

Distraction of the message.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:49

But I love that right, but I love the fact that there were people who noticed and came around and were like, let's remember why we're here and let's not give it to him.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:00

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:01

Yeah, and so yeah, where I was it I mean, we we we didn't walk the whole line because we we you know, we was just like, okay, here's a spot, like great, let's let's claim it, you know. And it was a nice turnout, and you know, it's just like again who knows at the end of the day, right? But the fact is we were there, it was peaceful, and yeah, and there were smiles because it it did felt feel good to get involved, to do something, to just not be silent and to show up. Yeah, and I have three kids that I I listen, whatever it takes for their future, yeah, and and I tell this and I'm like I have people in my family who support Donald Trump and I'm just like and what if if I'm deported, I I was born here, you know, but you know, like I could do birthright citizenship. Who's to say that it doesn't apply to me when he overturns it, right? Yeah, who's to say that he can't get rid of me because I I speak out against him?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:04

And you know what I say to which he's already have done this whole show, actually, too.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:10

Right, just this one, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:11

But I I let them know I don't want them to be sad when I'm gone. I don't want them to speak out for me. Because if you didn't speak out for anyone else, don't start with me. Yeah, go ahead, yeah, go ahead and say, Oh, well, she shouldn't have been doing that, like you say to everybody else. Oh, they shouldn't have been resisting, oh well, they shouldn't have been saying that. Oh, well, no, no, no. I you better say that about me too. Don't start with me sticking up.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:39

And I I find it um funny how the same one says, like, why are you protesting? And back to you when you were saying what we need to disrupt. Yeah, yeah, because you don't make any changes by being nice. And everyone who has anything to say about that, I don't want to see you grilling a hot dog on 4th of July. Because how do you think we got an independence? The Boston Tea Party wasn't a tea party with tea and crumpets. I mean, just in case you guys forgot, exactly. That was how our country was built upon. Exactly. Peaceful protest. How many civil rights peaceful protests were met by dogs and water hoses? So people peaceful didn't get us anything but abused anyway. So you know what? If I'm gonna be abused, let's do it for a reason. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:25

Absolutely. Um, yeah, no, I am I'm angry for you. Like, yeah, because it's just like, yeah, just going backwards is so gross.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:37

Um, but you're going backwards so quickly.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:40

Yeah. And and that's scary. That's uh and yeah, that's another thing that yeah, we should be very aware of is like Hitler did this in several years, you know, for using that as a blueprint.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:50

But this is like it's they well, they have the blueprint and then they have yeah, and then they have to be approved on it now. Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:59

And you're right, it has to be it has to be quick because there's a blueprint, and we yeah, um, it's the shock and awe of the media um thing. Um but yeah, so yeah, when I and it for me, and and I yeah, thank you, Lisa. I I absolutely like I said, I don't I don't want to disparage anyone. It was really cool. It was cool to see like um the senior citizens out with in their little walkers and rolling around and but also I had this feeling of like, where were you for trans kids? Where were you for roe? Where, you know, and there's some, obviously, yeah. And my my parents are like in their late 70s and they just organized a rally over at the plant parent plant parent in the in their their neighborhood um sport rally. Um and well, yeah, that was a that was fun too. There's like the 40 days of life people with their little rosary beads, and we were just there to disrupt, again, to disrupt, and they called the police on us and stuff. Um but that's what I want to see is more like putting ourselves on the line. Um, and like again, just to just to kind of compare, like with Black Lives La Matter, obviously there were the the what do you call them? The I forget like the detractor.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:08

A lot of them were intentional plants to distract doing um the Vietnam War and doing all Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:17

Like, yeah. Well, they said that they did this before, but the fact that we said they did again, you don't want to believe it. They actually said the distractors. That's the claiming horse distractors. Thank you. But yeah, that was to ignore that. But uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:32

But the people who were there legitimately, they also like they disrupted peacefully. Um, remember the most famous, one of the most famous was, you know, the the folks who they cleared from that plaza to and tear gas them so Trump could hold up a stupid Bible, you know. They were there peacefully, you know, but that that made national, you know, international news, you know, be because they really disrupted. And you're putting and the people who go on the highways, I mean, that's terrifying, but they're disrupting, they're making people's lives uncomfortable who normally would, you know, just be uh along. And and that's kind of the point of it. And the that's the point. Other thing I would love to see more of is um following the politicians, and I've seen this too, and they film it, but they go to the the rallies, you know, and they disrupt those rallies, or the you know, the oil executives and their little talks and stuff, they actually get in somehow and disrupt those and then that becomes news and I think we all need to be doing doing that all over the country like constantly 24-7. There's a group of people disrupting or they're at their little you know private dinner at some you know whatever some restaurant but somehow we follow them and you know just disrupt like let them know that they cannot have any peace you know if we don't have peace having peace right and I wonder how many people who are co-signing this beh this tyranny sat in their teeth watching 30 years ago watching the tanks roll over college students in Tiananmen Square.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:02

Yeah and I wondered and they were like oh no you're allowing the tanks to roll over you you're voting for the tanks to roll over you and you think it's okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:12

It just it's mind-boggling as to where we are with the nation and or even like Kent State here you know like the where they shot the students you know for Vietnam protests.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:22

Yeah it's and and I feel like like your parent people like your parents like I they they must be like I don't believe I'm doing this again. I know having the same fight like I don't believe this is like we won the fight and I don't believe I'm doing this again.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:38

I feel really bad for our yeah people our par the boomers because they're looking at the last years of their lives and it it oh god it's heartbreaking yeah like you guys suck like we failed like we like we passed this on to growth was to get better.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:56

We made changes and supposed to expand on it and you guys just fucked it up with two elections.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:00

Yeah thank you yes oh that actually I wanted to yeah the two elect very much with the two elections and I just wanted to get out the do you do you guys know the history of how the um how the the I should say the modern anti-abortion movement like with the evangelicals do you know the the history of that? You're gonna I love this. Okay, so it was right before Reagan, right? And he was endorsed by all the evangelicals the silent major or what do they call the silent majority or whatever they were called and um so they were endorsed. Okay so before then evangelicals and um Catholic Church a lot were helping women get abortions illegally like they had underground networks they were very hands off. Well the Reagan administration his advisors said oh geez we don't have segregation anymore to use as a wedge issue what should we use now abortion that's controversial let's use abortion for wedge issues and that's where it came it came from those racist white southerners who were all about you know d or sorry segregation right and it was born everything in this country is born for racism institutionalized racism we can't get so we since we can no longer use that as a let's do some bananas yeah well it's funny how you well segregation becoming issue again is becoming on the table again yeah where um yeah with the whole federal protection federal contracts like well we're not gonna ban it but we're not gonna yeah you it's fine if you do it in like federal contractors you can do whatever you want no longer explicitly explicitly yes like hey why the hell not like I wonder I was just wondering if that's because they they're done with Roe you know they got ro they got their roe overturn and now they got to go back to that as a wedge issue I guess I oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:58

So yeah I'm pulling back and I'm yeah okay um I'm just gonna build a boat and just just sail just sail at this point for a floating raft of floating piece of wood. Yeah I feel like now as a woman of color I have to like I'm gonna have to find myself a like a like like a man like your husband I'm gonna find a white old white man that's streamed left and married just to protect myself. Like he could be gay it's fine he could be classic gay I'd be but I feel like it's gonna get to that point where we're gonna have to have some kind of protection.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:40

Yeah I think like and yeah I think protection comes with for personally I think it's community and like yeah because men are not our friends in general I feel like like even as wonderful you know my husband is a feminist he's a proud feminist he centers women's voices he's he's amazing that way is very much an anomaly I I am very grateful. But there are still things you know there are things that are internalized that you know and he they're not many but even you know he has a certain privilege that he knows he has and I don't know I just don't think our answer is with with men necessarily and by the way gay men there's a we call it the gay triarchy there's like gay white men who can you know get away with being strayed around they're not our friends either.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:28

I mean for a long time women have been fighting for their rights and we have not seen them at our rallies you know no I believe I think even just on paper because it's like um like with uh with the the war against women I like to call it I feel like there needs to be some kind of on paper protection like no she's a black woman is she really American No this is my white husband leave me alone like the get it to that point where we're like oh can she make a decision I need someone to like if I need to make a medical decision for myself oh well you can't because you're single you can't have a credit card well this is my husband he said on paper I feel like we're gonna have to get to that point just to God I see what you mean yeah little scary sucks and it's going back towards it yeah yeah and I feel like it's it's gonna sooner rather than later it may become a it may become a reality. Really that yeah but you know what are we gonna do about it but fight?

SPEAKER_05 1:34:29

Ugh well and I I fight for all women but like I said I especially I and I I want black women to tell me like you know if if I'm doing something that is counter you know counterproductive or whatever it is, I just I really want to because you're right like I always say that okay so you think you have it bad but like black women are at the bottom of the totem, you know, in the institutional totem pole and not only like lesbian black women or trans black women are, you know, I can't God I can't even imagine that target on my my back and we need to imagine it you know we need to try to really center that because like you said it's not we can't just come out for our own issue. You know it has to be we fight for others.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:14

And it's intersectional everything's interconnected and some there's some issues where sometimes you have to see color in the sense that you can understand and acknowledge acknowledge like oh okay like like I don't care what color you are because you're my best friend but I I see color as far as what your reality is. That's that's what I yeah that thank you said it better than I did.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:37

Yeah exactly and that doesn't happen often let me tell you because words are hard but I think also to build on the impressive Long Island I see I got a drink to be to make sense so that's bad yeah you know we have to we have to allow ourselves to listen openly and and hear someone else's opinion and perspective because if we want to do the right thing we want to grow as people if we want to grow together we need to put our feelings aside sometimes and say how how can I best serve you oh I'm not doing this right and not get insulted not get in our feelings not be like well then fuck you I'm not doing anything. No we need to say shit okay thank you for telling me because sometimes and many times many times right I mean you know trolls on the internet are the exception but when people take the time to correct you they're doing it because they want you to do better. Like if if they didn't care how stupid you looked they'd be like haha look at her like they could just let you keep going right they could just let you keep looking stupid but when we take the time to correct someone it's because we want them to be better. And we have to understand that for ourselves that when we are corrected it's not a personal attack it is so that we can do better for ourselves and for others. And we have to be able to listen to each other. We have to be able to acknowledge each other's concerns in order for us to be better as humans for ourselves for our community for our family like for everything you know just for everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:30

Yeah but you have but that's assuming that we're at a position at time in this country where we care about other people this is no but there's a huge lot of there's a huge number of people that really don't care.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:42

No you're you're right. But I'm saying what what she was saying oh well yeah I was like it's gonna work if we if people actually cared about the people but people don't right but when somebody does correct us and when we are trying to go to these protests or we are we are voting or we are organizing we are trying to yeah we have to be able to hear someone else's perspective and not take it as a personal attack. Because as a society we are and myself included I mean I don't always speak and say like who the fuck you think you're talking to you but but you but when somebody says something I'm like what the fuck is this you know but we have to remember that it's bigger than just us. Like we we are part of it but but it's bigger than just the one person and we have to be able to take that beat and say okay I hear you what you do with that afterwards right is is on you. You can continue to do the same thing you can research you can change you can do whatever but but we have to be able to hear another person's concern without attacking them for voicing it.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:01

Yeah. I've had I've really struggled with that with um and I said it earlier it was a little disparaging but like the girl boss um feminists and the like the liberals you know because I I'm an independent you know voter and I I consider myself I guess more progressive. I don't I don't care about the label but just someone who believes in universal healthcare and like liberation for trans people, that kind of thing. And um yeah I just I struggle with if you're if you're farther left or I guess the right wing would say this too, but the farther left people and you're like, yeah, but what you're doing like we were talking about it just goes back to normal and you may be secure in that but there's so many people who are suffering under Obama's policies and I know you love him and he was a good guy and stuff, but but he also didn't fight for to code codify Roe. He didn't fight for universal healthcare when he said he would, you know? And he capitulated to Wall Street and like could we please just critically think about this then yeah and the institutions that we're supporting maybe we should not support them anymore. Like you know I know that's what we have to deal with now but also so I have a I really struggle with like you're right. Like I need to listen but also I'm like but you're wrong you know and it's like how do you but you can't say that you know it is hard. It is so yeah like I guess just asking questions and like well how did you feel about Obama not following through with you know a public option or maybe maybe more questions is the way to go but yeah and it's okay right for us to question our politicians.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:37

It's okay that if if I voted for Kamala and I can acknowledge that she was the better candidate not just for me but for many in in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:50

Yeah but if I tomorrow say but you know what her policy plans on XYZ were like meh or better that's okay too because they work for exclusive yeah and I think now today would be a good time at the you know be instead of the month before the next election if we get one now is a good time to start implementing mostly parties. Everyone complains about not only having two parties but they complain at when it's too late. If that's something we should let's start implementing it now by time an election.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:28

But at the very least okay at the very least I believe that primaries should be open to everyone. Because if if we're gonna be I mean listen this two party system is not going anywhere in any hurry, right? But at the very least if I'm registered as as a Democrat I don't think it's fair that I don't get to partake in the Republican primary because that Republican pres candidate might be very well be my president.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:55

So I should have a choice in which one is on the ballot.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:59

Right? Yeah I think that that's fair in terms of our elections because they may very well be the candidate.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:08

Yeah we get an election but that's besides at this point I don't know I don't know we're gonna have an election next time in in four years.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:17

But uh maybe if we could do more of our disrupting maybe like maybe like like the Tesla oh my gosh the Tesla I know that cheeseburger is out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:26

I know it's out there. The what would you that cheat that cheeseburger I know that there is a cheeseburger just waiting to fulfill its duty it's out there cheeseburger to clog that ottery you try to say it's out there somewhere.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:42

Yeah but it's just that we're having these conversations I don't think we would have been we wouldn't be having them even I'm I hate to say this because I voted for I voted for Kamala because I'm about um harm reduction, right? You know, like you said I didn't agree with a lot of stuff but I know it would have been better. But um but anyway here we are and like I don't think we would have even been having these conversations if she had won because we're still like we would still be stuck in that okay we're still in the status quo, you know, and we'll just keep going along and like so I guess if we can see the silver lining and in any of this horribleness is maybe that maybe things will actually change.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:19

I don't know I I'm too much of an optimist probably like like you said Agnes if we have an election you know at all I mean sometimes that actually makes sense because sometimes something has to burn completely to the ground to get any kind of hope. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:33

And I I think I think that's what the the young it seems like a lot of younger people who didn't vote or whatever the you know the issues were I think that's what happened. But also I'm just gonna say it and I don't think it's a conspiracy because I've seen people like um if you know Jack Pallance he's done like he's kind of followed yeah that yes talked about the Bush um sorry Bush Gore gore election and how the Republicans stole the election back then. But he's been talking about how you know it was stolen this time around with Trump and Elon and I've looked at the numbers and I they stole it. They stole it. And you know they're always screeching about you know the Democrats stealing they literally stole it. And so it wasn't just you know but again on our side of things we're pointing the fingers at white women or the young people or you know and that's what they're they want distracting.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:20

They're doing the cause is they're distracting better than we're distracting. Yeah disrupting and distracting and doing all that better than we're just I don't know what I don't know what the answer is at this point.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:35

Yeah and um yeah I think like it's just talking about it is is the first step I think I think it's awesome and thank you again for for bringing me on and uh letting me talk about this stuff and and you guys yeah you're awesome. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:49

On that note do you have anything that's coming up for you that you want to share or promote or push. Oh thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:56

Um like I said it's so hard to get ever get things out but um yeah I'm I have a YouTube channel now. I don't know if you can even find it. I mean it's nothing right now. So what okay so two things I would love to do is get my podcast started. And on that one I would love to interview specifically people in the abortion like abortion rights space. So like I said my first interview will be with these two women who were targeted under the Biden's DOJ um who did graffiti on the crisis pregnancy centers really fascinating actually it's an amazing like I learned a lot about um what all they are surveilling and um things you think are safe that you're communicating on really aren't. So that's gonna be good. The first half of that I hope to get out really soon. That's the first um when I launched my podcast. And then the other thing I really wanted to do with my YouTube channel is uh a series of video essays on the history of misogyny. So not just like patriarchy but like literal like hatred of women and like how that plays into all of our institutions. And and I just I I saw some video about Mesopotonian you know laws and how they kind of relate to today and I'm like oh that's a really fascinating topic. I want to look into that. So anyway that's where I hope to go with the YouTube channel. I don't have a date for that but that's upcoming.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:26

I will get it out as soon as I can I've got to plan it first but and definitely send I mean even if it's like via TikTok or whatever just send me any links and I'll put them right into the show notes. This way it's easy click. Click and find.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:39

Amazing I appreciate that and yeah and people can find me at uh I guess it's the abortion fluencer no in so the abortion fluencer um on let's see where am I TikTok uh Instagram YouTube threads I'm on blue sky which is just abortion fluencer because the length um but it's weird have you guys tried blue sky it's kind of Lisa has okay have you gotten any traction there because it's kind of still kind of new I don't I don't have yeah ton of followers but I will say that uh when I first joined there was a lot of momentum so I'm I'm at about 1500 which yeah it's still pretty good I mean a lot for for me and you know me too yeah good yeah I mean when I when I post things it's like hit or miss right like some things will get like 40 interactions.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:35

That's good. And some and yeah and I'm just like okay that's pretty good. And then some things will just sit there and die.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:42

So yeah most of mine are doing that. So yeah I'm not quite sure how it works now but yeah or yeah what's the sweet spot?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:50

Do you have to pick a certain like sometimes I wonder do you have to see what's going on in news media and pick and see what's going like whatever's trending.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:59

And then hit it thin or you know I can tell from my for my space this is really sad but my my videos that do the best are the hate videos where I go after like the liar liar force birther pants on fire is one of my series where I will take a video from a forced birther you know and then like respond to it, debunk their crap. And the latest one I don't know if you guys saw it but it was the girl who was chewing she was eating a hamburger while she was saying things like I don't care if you die if you get an abortion and it was it's awesome I did not see that but I don't think I could have watched that that it's drive well I put a warning yeah me too I have that Agnes can tell you how many times I yell at her when she eats while we record and I'm like number one I'm hungry now thank you and number two my ears.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:46

Chewing yeah I put a thing yeah and look at the mute and just like sorry but well it's a thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:53

But if you can get past that like for some reason like that just hit and it went um someone on Instagram who had a big account shared it and then it just took off but I found that the hate algorithm is real unfortunately if you put out something controversial and you know that's like whatever triggering or whatever controversy it it will do pretty well which I hate I don't want to do that but yeah that's my tip use the hate algorithm.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:20

Good to know I am a couple things I'm interested in um whenever you do your like your document your docuseries and your little interviews I'm interested in the correlation between our the the the work is women and the period tracker apps. I oh yeah curious about there was oh there was like 600 things and you're talking about Mesotania and then like oh wait well there's the there's the um how kingdoms and was passed down from women and uh in Egypt because we knew who as females because we knew like okay our children are our children so we know we can pass on the kingdom and so forth with that and funny how that changed because women had too much power.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:15

Um the lot of with the misogyny and stuff oh my god I have to give you my little things oh please things that just like we should just pop up and talk about just yeah scary and how yeah no I would love that and tell me anything like I'm just doing it I'm just yeah whatever I find yeah but yeah yeah kind of like whatever I find I would love to listen I will sh share the hell up what is I don't know yeah no thank you no I think we should all especially women like I am a girls girl I want to support other women too and I'm so sorry I I did not get around to I was gonna do a graphic to promote um this and I completely ran out of time but I will promote it after and like you know I'll I'll send people your way and like I think we should be collaborating all the time women especially excited thank you I agree I agree because I love us I love us I love that for us because I'm like this is gonna be a great episode she's like can I get offensive I'm like oh yes and I didn't get as offensive as I could have darn it okay well if you have me on again I'll part two thank you so much talking to new people you're like how far can I go and usually people are like yeah you're fine go all the way yeah yeah it's cathartic well thank you very much um for having me on and um I wish you all the luck with this uh your project and I will continue to promote you guys thank you thank you so much I can't wait to see what you come up with thank you so excited I'm excited so everyone who's listening please go check out Colleen check out her links check out her videos you probably will learn something and be entertained at the same time and as always we remind you to drink responsibly and not to drink and drive and until next time I'm Lisa and I'm Agnes and we're out of here see you later bye thank you thank you Colleen thank you ladies